[CHAP] Joe Lawhorn - Healing, Growth, and the Grace of God

Pete Stone (00:00.27)
Joe LaHorn, the garrison chaplain for USAG Hawaii, United States Army garrison Hawaii, thank you for spending some time with me today. I have observed your leadership for a couple of years and you've inspired me with the way you lead, the way you think, and your passion to serve your God and to serve soldiers and families. That's where I want to move. That's where I want to do. And you've created this...

vision ministry that moves mountains here in Hawaii, in Usar Hall. And I'd love to just hear your story. And I sat down in your office a few months ago and heard your story. I was like, holy cow, not every chaplain comes to their God this way and not every chaplain comes to the chaplain corps this way. And it's just an inspiring story. It's a beautiful story. I'd love to hear it. Thank you for being with us. Yeah, no, I appreciate that Pete. Thank you for the introduction. And first of all, man,

Two and a half years has gone by like that and I know that years from now I'm gonna look back at this place and the highlights of my time here isn't gonna be about anything I've done or anything that we've collectively done as a team It's gonna be about the relationships and you're right there at the top man. You're right there at the top And so just from a personal standpoint I'm grateful for you and our friendship and and yeah, thank you. I look for collegiality. Yeah all that stuff. Yeah, hopefully I can get you on to

more of these podcasts where we do some quick hits and you share some scripture and some encouragement. Hopefully you can be a part of that. Yeah, it'll be a blessing. So hopefully this is the first of many times. Yeah. So speaking of people and relationships, your family, we got to start with your family. You're growing up. Okay. Tell us your story. How did you actually come to a relationship with Jesus? This story blows my mind. Well, I mean, you know, I could go into a lot of detail, but the bottom line of all of it was,

Really, I mean, it comes down to the sovereignty of God, right? And I grew up in a very dysfunctional, broken home that if I were to show you a genogram, you know what a genogram is, right? Of just family history. I came from a long line, generation after generation of just brokenness, really. I mean, just littered with things like drug abuse and alcohol addiction. Divorce is rampant on both sides of my family.

Pete Stone (02:28.558)
for generations, literally for generations. I was one of two kids. I'm an older sibling to a younger sister. And my parents got married very, very young. I think they were like 19 and 18 respectively. Didn't know what they were doing. They were not set up for success, you know, previous generations. So they didn't know what they were doing. And on top of that, my father was very, very abusive.

specifically physically abusive to my younger sister. Now somehow by the grace of God I escaped for the most part the physical stuff, but there was emotional abuse, there was psychological abuse. My dad was a blue collar construction worker. I come from a long line of men who painted houses, carried bricks and block, did mortar, right, put up fences, just that kind of stuff.

I think my dad was like maybe 21 or 22. So I was young, right? I was young when I was practically still in diapers when this happened, but he got hurt on a job one time where he hurt his back really, really bad and he never worked again. Never worked again. He drew workman's comp. We were very, very poor, right? We lived on food stamps. You grew up in Cincinnati? Yeah, right outside of Cincinnati. I was in Claremont County, you know, 45 minute drive out. We were in the sticks.

four way stop sign kind of place. He never worked again from that point and he was just on all these pain meds and stuff. So all of his brokenness and dysfunction that had always been there was, I think it was compounded by all of these medications and he was still drinking and that kind of thing. And so for the next decade or more, he literally sat comatose at our kitchen table and listened to the clock tick.

That's what he did. So, so no engagement whatsoever with the family. My mom took me to my little league game, sat on the log. So I had a, I had a man in the house, but I did not have a present father. That was as far back as you can remember. As far back as I can remember. It finally got to a point where, where my mom just couldn't take it anymore. She wanted better for herself. She wanted better for her kids.

Pete Stone (04:43.918)
Now I won't, I'll spare you the details of it, but my sister had her own story. She was two years my junior. And from the time she came out of the womb, she monopolized my parents attention and energy. She was a very problematic child. When she was 13, she broke, she broke out of our house in the middle of the night, stole our family car and wrecked it. She went to juvie. She did all that kind of stuff. She ended up in a foster home for a year.

and of my mother's doing out of a fear that my father would harm her. So just for a sense of her own safety, my mom put my kid sister in a foster home. I was about 13 at the time. My sister would have been about 11 when that happened. And so for a year, my sister's living in a foster home and suddenly things got a little bit quiet around the house. My sister was gone, right? The focus of attention.

from from my parents will coming up on when my sister was going to be released from her foster home tenure my mom had made the decision to leave my dad she did not want to bring my kids sister back into that environment back into the home so she made the decision that upon my sister's release she was going to take herself and her two kids and move from ohio to florida my mom had extended family there so we ended up in florida again i was

By that time I was about 14, 15 years old. She would have been about 13. I was a freshman in high school, obviously, at that age. So went from little small town, Ohio, cornfields, kind of a big fish in a little pond sort of thing, athletically, all that kind of stuff. So you were playing sports? yeah. Despite the home life, I was a straight A student. I was a...

captain of the baseball team. I was real. I mean, I grew up in, since I was, I was going to be of Cincinnati red someday. Like that was my dream. That was my passion. and, and I'll tell you in just a second that I probably good enough to do that if I would have stayed on that path. So we moved to Florida and I didn't realize it at the time, but looking back on it, my world just fell apart. My whole world is dysfunctional and broken as it was. It was my world and it was familiar and it felt safe. There was,

Pete Stone (07:03.118)
It's funny how you can feel safe and brokenness. And that's kind of what my childhood was like. But when I got to Florida, the walls are broken. Yeah, they're still the walls. Right. Right. Shawshank. Yeah. Remember? You come to come to rely on those walls. Yes. And that's kind of how it happened. So the walls came down in Florida and I just felt incredibly lost. My family had been broken. My mom under the guise of it was always we moved there.

just to give Becky a different environment. My sister, right? I know now that she was leaving my dad. That was the crux of it. So at the time, my world just fell apart. I got angry. I ended up, I didn't withdraw from school. I just quit going to school. So at 15 years old in my freshman year, I was done with school. I did not go. My mom and I, who had always gotten along, I mean, I've always been closest with my mom.

were a lot of like in a lot of ways and temperament personality i'll ask that her i'd just i'd became a rebellious kid i was really i was just pissed off was angry at the world and i was looking for somebody to blame so there was a couple years there between fifteen and i'd say about eighteen years old did you quit sports i did that too which crazy enough when i one of the for one of the good things when i first got to florida

I struggled socially. I struggled academically. Like I just couldn't latch on in those areas. But baseball was, had always been my thing. And I, and I played baseball, youth baseball, Babe Ruth baseball, all that kind of stuff. And as soon as I got to Florida, I latched onto very competitive league, was drafted really high into that league. I was a newcomer. Everybody else knew each other. I was the new guy on the block. I ended up getting picked third overall in a draft for that and, and was on a team with.

players at 15 years old that went on to play in MLB. So that's that I played first base in that league mostly. And I want to that one year that I played in that league, I want a gold glove. I led the league in stolen bases. I think I hit 439 or something was the only switch hitter in the league. So I had talent, I had skill and the

Pete Stone (09:21.39)
It proved to me that I could compete at that level. This was a level up from what I had experienced in Ohio. And the thing about it was even at that age group, we had college scouts coming to those games. University of Florida was there, Central Florida, schools, local colleges. They'd come and hang out and watch our games. And I remember after games, they'd come up to me and some of our players and they'd say, kid, you got it, man. You got what it takes. You just, you graduate high school. Somebody's going to give you a ride. Somebody's going to give you a scholarship.

So that was validated in me, this whole baseball thing, but then I had this other part of my world that was falling apart and it couldn't sustain it. So when I began to lash out at my mom and the world and teachers and coaches, I chucked baseball. I chucked it. There was a period there when my mom and I, our relationship got so bad. She was like, just go live with your dad. Go back to Cincinnati, go back to Ohio, live with your dad. And I did that. I went back and forth a couple of times. Well, you know.

Screw you. I'm going to go live with that or whatever. Well, when I did that, what I realized was I was kind of really throwing my life away because my dad still disengaged, still not did not have the resources to father me at that age. Right. I was still medicated. He had quit drinking by then, but he was still under the influence of these meds. And he quit drinking. You want to know the truth? Was it was a concern for his health or any of that? No, my dad is cheap.

He didn't want to pay for it anymore. Okay. And he was getting what he had paid for, I guess, for the medication. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's why my dad quit drinking. But anyways, he wasn't working, right? He was living in a small apartment and he let me live with him and he said, hey, I'm not paying this rent by myself. You're going to have to pitch in. If you're not going to go to school, you need to go get a job because I'm not buying your cigarettes. I'm not buying your beer.

I'm not buying your pot. By then I was in all that. Okay. By then I was in all that. Right. So, so, so I wasn't going to go back to school. I was too angry for that and uncommitted and undisciplined. So I did what all the law horns did. I went and got me a blue collar job and I went from job to job to job from the time I was 15 years old, Pete, until I enlisted in the army at 21 years old. I've done everything under the sun to make a dollar. I've, I've worked in bowling alleys.

Pete Stone (11:48.91)
I've done every kind of construction you can think of. I've put up fences, I've painted houses, you know, just like all the other men. I drove a tractor trailer for RC Cola. I've done door to door sales. I mean, I've worked in restaurants, I've washed dishes, scrubbed floors, you know, all that was beer money, right? Put gas in the car and all that. So I just, from 15 to 21, I was a leaf in the wind with no purpose, no direction, and just pretty much pissed off at the world.

Yeah, so.

Until one day, until one day I eventually went back to Florida. Excuse me. You're a musician too, right? So one of the things that's in that window. Right. So, you know, this was in the eighties, right? I'm dating myself. I'm 53 years old. So dude, that window of time as a teenager, this was the 1980s. Remember the big hair bands? I was Joe Bon Jovi. Yeah. I was Joe Bon Jovi. Or the cover band. Yeah. So,

One some my mother's father. So my grandfather, my maternal grandfather was a businessman and he owns some land out in Montana in the middle of nowhere where he was doing some mining on an industrial level. And, you know, I've been to dad and want to go to Ohio anymore, but I was pissed off at my mom. So I made the decision. I'm just going to go hang out with grandpa for the summer out in the out in Montana. Right. And he invited me to come out there. Now, the backstory about my grandpa, he was.

Johnny Cash, George Jones, all of those old musicians. He's partied with them. Hank Williams, senior. he, you know, he was a musician, did some time in Nashville himself. Nothing, nothing big. You wouldn't hear of them or anything like that, but he traveled in those circles and was big into music. And so that summer that I went out to Montana, it was, it was me and 13 other old men living in a single wide, two single wide trailers.

Pete Stone (13:43.086)
on 13 acres in a place called Alder, Montana. And I spent three months out there driving bobcats, moving big rocks into little rocks and stuff like that. And then in my spare time smoking dope and learning how to play a six string acoustic guitar. And so after that summer, after that summer in Montana, I went back to Florida, hooked up with a couple of friends who were in a garage band. And it just turned out they...

They needed a bass player. I'd never held a bass. But I weaseled my way into that whole thing just because they were my friends and I liked to party with them in the garage. You smug ween, you had good hair. I had the hair for it. And so this garage band, yeah, there was a period of a couple few years in Florida when we would play like the tiki bars on the beaches and we'd do weddings and different stuff, you know, playing the little clubs there along the beach in Florida. Did that for a couple years.

Part of your 15 to 21 year old. Yeah, and that wasn't, you know, that's just the lifestyle that went along with it. I cared about two things back in those days. Where was the next party and getting laid to be? That's what I cared about. That's what I cared about. And you know what? For a season, it was fun for a season. It was fun. Also dangerous. It was during those years I should have ended up dead or in jail. I've wrecked cars. I've totaled them. I've wrapped them around trees, driving intoxicated.

I, I've been pulled over by police with girls in the back seat who had no business being in the car with me. by the grace of God, I didn't get killed. I didn't get incarcerated in any of those circumstances. By the time I was between 20 and 21, I began to, to, I stopped having fun. I began to get very, very depressed. And I think, I think it was a sense.

doing with your life? What are you doing with your life? You know, and by then I had my mother in my ear, like, you know, you had this going for you. You were a great student. You love to learn athletics. You have so much potential. You're throwing it away. You're throwing it away. You're throwing it away. And I just, I felt like God started moving in my heart at that time, you know, and there was a, I came to a point where it's like,

Pete Stone (16:04.334)
You know, I've been partying my rear end off for years now and I'm just tired. I'm tired of the pretending. I'm tired of the crowd. I'm tired of the feeling like crap all the time. Hung over all the time. There's got to be more than to life than this. This is not me. I've been playing a role. I've been playing a role and I'm done playing this role. Who am I really? At that time I was living in a, a

be a little beach bungalow in Fort Pierce, Florida, was actually shacked up with somebody. And we had been together for about a year and she was throwing around the word. Hey, you know, we're in love and what's our future and you know, you're just stringing me along. Where's this going? All the common things that, you know, if you've been with a girl for over a year, she wants to, she should be asking me all the right things. I didn't have any answers and I didn't.

I felt like committed to her and I felt like we were a thing, but I felt like I had no future because I was not living correctly in the present. One, this was at the time, by the way, that I was driving the truck for RC Cola. Weird hours. Do they even make RC Cola anymore? I've seen it. I've seen it. I don't know where you can get it, but I think, I think you can say it. Royal crown, right? Yeah. Not the other, not crown. Weird hours. I remember, man, listen, I had to get up at three o 'clock in the morning to do that job because you got to.

You got to go get the truck. You got to load the truck with all the sodas and stuff. And then you got to make your rounds. You're hitting all the grocery stores, the circle K's, the seven 11, right? And, and you're trying to do that early in the morning. Yeah. Remember? well here's the chat. A fridge full of RC. Didn't you? I know it was, it was Bud light. Okay. yeah, I didn't drink the stuff. I just drove it around. yeah. It's three o 'clock in the morning. They had a very strict hair policy. You couldn't have long hair. So every morning, this dear woman.

would put my hair up in like bobby pins. I would have like 50 or 60 bobby pins, put my Bon Jovi hair up under my RC hat. That's how I went to work every day. But anyways, I had been doing that job for about six months of the backdrop of this relationship, the house, my future, all this kind of stuff. I hated the job, by the way. It was a terror. Who wants to get up at three o 'clock in the morning, put your hair up for an hour to go deliver pop that you don't even like? It's called pop where I'm from.

Pete Stone (18:28.558)
What? And so I got home early. You know, every day my job ended, I would get home about two or three o 'clock in the afternoon. Well, the girl that I was with, she was, she, she had her own job, so she had worked more normal hours. So every afternoon I had to myself this one particular morning or afternoon, I came home from the job and it just hit me like a ton of bricks that this, I had, I had hit critical mass on the life that I was living. And, and, and I call it my, I had my red carpet experience.

And I call it my red carpet experience because this bungalow that I was living in, it was a dump. I think it was built in like the forties or something. I mean, you could throw a rock and hit the ocean. That was cool. But it had this fire engine red shag carpet in the living room that was so out of place, that was so obnoxious. It just hit you in the face when you walked in the front door. It kind of gave it its charm, you know? But I came home from work this one day.

And it just over what my emotions were overwhelmed. I couldn't do it. It was, I just felt crushed under the weight of my own life. And, and, and I, I remember to this day, I'll never forget laying in a pool of my own snot and piss on that fire engine red carpet, pouring my heart out to God.

Pete Stone (19:46.894)
What is going on with me? I'm so sorry. I've been messing this up. Well, I did not, great question, I did not grow up in the church. My dad didn't have anything to do with it. Now my mom had been raised Methodist. She grew up with a church background. Her family line, they went to church and they were Methodists, I believe, on her side of the family. So even though as a kid in my own home, we didn't...

go to church. We weren't church goers per se. My mom talked about God all the time. She would make statements of faith. She would talk about God. She would talk about how important it is to believe in God and to honor God. And there's something that's more important than you that applies to all of this, that applies to all of us. Right? So there was always those little snippets. And I know she was a praying.

In fact, she tells the story of when I was a brand new baby, I was her first born, right? She was a stay at home mom with a deadbeat father. She would push me down the stroller and just pray over me on Main Street in Newtonsville. That's what she did every day. She said that was her favorite time. That was the favorite. To this day, she'll tell you, that was my favorite time in life was being a brand new young mother and just having those times with my new baby and just...

you know, pushing me down the stroller and praying over me. So she was a woman of faith, even though we were not, you know, we weren't church people. So I had this concept of God and I had this concept. It just hit me that day on the red carpet. I have been running away from from this God and I and to my own detriment. And I was living the the consequences of that. I was living the consequences of that. So that afternoon, red carpet.

Pulling my own snot and piss, bawling like I've never bawled before. I give up. It was a, I didn't know what I was doing. Looking back, I gave up my life. I gave up control of my life. I confessed that I was living in a way I didn't want to live anymore. And I wanted something better, anything better, right? I wanted to feel alive, like really alive. And I just surrendered my life. It was my red carpet experience.

Pete Stone (22:10.126)
That's what I call it. God rolled out the red carpet for you. Rolled out the red carpet, man. And then, I, this is crazy on a whim without any prior thought, without any prior, anybody even suggesting this to me to within two weeks of that prayer, Pete, I ended up at the army recruiter's office. Be all that you can be. I did not.

I had people on sides of my family who had served in the military, but I was not from a military family per se. And it never, ever was it on my radar, either before my drunken teenage days or during. Like it was never on my radar. So this is like 91? This would have been, yeah, maybe, yeah, late 91 or early 92. I stumbled, I literally stumbled my way.

into the recruiters, Bon Jovi Hare and everything, started the dialogue. How can I get in? Now, mind you, this was right after the first Gulf War, right? And after that first Gulf War, like the Army does sometimes, they let more people out than they thought was going to get out. And so now there's a need to refill the ranks. And so they lower the standards. Because I had quit high school, one of the good things that I did do was I did go back of my own accord.

And I got my GED probably at the prodding of my mother. At least go do that, right? At least go get your GED. And so I had my GED in hand and there was a small little window after the first Gulf War where they were letting GED folks in. So that's how I got in. Yeah, and then shipped off for basic training in October of 92. October of 92. And that's where it all changed, man. Did you connect with some other believers at that time? This is a story too, man.

Listen to this, this can blow your mind. I don't, maybe, I don't know if I've shared this with you before. So I, by God's, it was God's grace that I even got in the army because I had to pass that drug test, right? I mean, I was literally high three days before I had to pee in the cup and it, you know, but I overcame all that. I ended up in basic training, went to basic training at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri.

Pete Stone (24:30.35)
21 year old, leaf in the wind, Joe Lawhorn, private Lawhorn shows up with his buzz cut. One of the first people I meet at basic training is an Army chaplain.

Yeah. John Routson, first lieutenant. No way. John Routson. Do you know him? I think I know him. Okay. Listen, listen to this. First he was, he was the, he was the Yusa Sowak chapel. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just retired like five years ago. Yeah. You know, John Routson, listen, Joe Lahlhorn meets John, first lieutenant, John Routson at Leonardwood, Fort Leonardwood, Missouri.

For some reason, I got this dude who takes a liking to me, man. I'm pulling guard in the middle of the night and here comes a chaplain walking up to me, right? I'm out of the range. There's John Routson again. It felt like almost like he came to find me. He came to find me. That's what it felt like. We struck up a conversation and in the two or three months that I'm at basic training.

He's always around. Of course, I'm one of those guys that volunteers to go to chapel on Sunday. I'm tired of buffing the floor. I'll go and eat your cookies. I'll sit with you. Yeah. Yeah. But you know, I've been having conversations with this guy and he's telling me about the gospel. I'm sharing my story, right? And I'm excited for the first time in years and years and years. It's like the world opened up to me. Not only this, the army stuff. I felt like I had purpose in the army. The army gave me purpose. It gave me structure. It gave me direction. Right. But, but the whole world of

and faith opened up to me. And this guy, John Rouson, he's sharing the gospel with me. The first Bible I ever had was a camouflage Bible that John Rouson gave me. I still have that freaking Bible. I still have that Bible. I surrendered my life to the Lord during basic training, and John Rouson baptized me at a Thanksgiving service at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri. Okay. There's...

Pete Stone (26:33.294)
John Routzen comes back into my story years later. I can tell you about that if you want. But that's a gossip. You want to hear it now? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right, man. So graduate based training, I move on. I enlisted as a cook. That was the only thing they offered me, man. I was just a GED dude, you know, stoner. And they let me in. But they're like, I could have been, I could have been an infantry man. I could have been a Cav scout. I could have been a mechanic or I could have been a cook. Those were the four choices they gave me at MEPS.

And of course I chose Cook because I've worked at Frish's before. I know I've mopped floors and done dishes. How different can it be? So I chose being a Cook because I thought maybe those hours will be a little bit better. I can go to school. I wanted to go back to school. I've always loved being in school. I love learning. Love being a student. So that was why I chose it. So finished basic, went to AIT.

went out to my first duty station, which was at the time it was just Fort Lewis. We didn't call it JBLM back then. It was just Fort Lewis and was a cook in an infantry regiment, the Manchus, nine to two nine infantry. Did my time there. Went green to gold. I, I, I went to college at night there. I did what I said I was going to do. I went to school and applied for an ROTC green gold scholarship during that time was accepted.

into a pro I could have gone to a lot of places I chose to go to the University of Tampa in Florida and I'll tell you why Pete remember the girl I told you about who put my hair up in the bobby pins after basic training I married that girl and I brought her from Florida up to Fort Lewis Kristen is it no no man no no I'm sorry no this is somebody else this is somebody else I'm sorry this is wife number one man okay wife number one brought her up to Fort Lewis

doing our time there. She was, she had never left Florida before this girl, never left Florida, never been away from mama before. She got very, very like clinically depressed up in Washington where it rains nine months a year. Just was, found it difficult to make relationships, make friendships, all that kind of stuff. So when it came ROTC time and I had a pretty extensive selection to where do I want to go to school?

Pete Stone (28:49.262)
I chose Tampa because I figured, let's get back to sunshine. Let's get some sand between her toes again, right? Let's get her back home closer to mama. And it might help our relationship, help her, which will help our relationship. Now look, it didn't last. We got back to school or I got to school. We got back to Florida. It didn't last. It turns out the problems were not just her after all. It was partly me too. Go figure. Imagine that. Yeah. So, so, so.

Wherever you go, there you are. There you are. And whatever problems you have, you contribute to them in some way. Right. Of course, we were young and stupid and didn't have the maturity to work through those issues or even the wherewithal to do it. So we cut, cut bait on that marriage. We ended up getting divorced. So I'm in school now. I'm at university of Tampa and not too long, maybe a year or so after that, I'm I.

I began a relationship with a fellow cadet in the ROTC program who would come be go on to become my wife now of almost 25 years. So the story ends well on the on the relationship run redemption knew you're right. Second chances. That's right. So anyways, University of Tampa. I graduated in 98 commission as an infantry officer. Four years as an infantry officer, I transferred to

AG branch, I do four years there. Meanwhile, Kristin and I, we got married in 99 and started building a family, right? So together she and I have five kids and station to station everywhere we've been assigned. In 2006, I was an AG officer teaching the career course at Fort Jackson. I was an AG career course instructor.

God had been working on me during that time, by the way, Kristen and I, Kristen comes from a very similar sort of story of brokenness and dysfunction. Where is she from? She's originally from Portland, Oregon, and family in the Northwest region. She ended up graduating high school in the Renton, Washington area near Seattle. So she's a Northwesterner. But similar story in terms of what sort of environment she came from and just how we

Pete Stone (31:06.702)
We made the decision, man, we're going to do it different. We're going to be the chain breakers in our family lines. And, you know, we took marriage very, very seriously. We took child rearing very, very seriously. We began to grow in our faith. Every place we got stationed, we would plug into local churches. And, you know, we were praying together. We were reading the word together. We were just trying to do it better. Make, you know, we were young people building a family and trying to build a life. And so.

2006, we were at Fort Jackson. I was a career course instructor. God had been working on me at different stops along the way, dropping little hints. You hear about pastors, ministers who get the call. How does the call come? For some people, it's one of those things I think wakes me up in the middle of the night, like, I know what I got to do now. I know what my purpose in life is. I think sometimes it can happen more gradually than that. And I think for me, it was more of a gradual thing.

I began to sense it when I was a company commander, you know, for example, and then a couple duty stations later, I'm at Jackson teaching the career course, and then God solidified it. That was, that was the, I think it was time and space because as it turns out, I dropped a refrad packet there at Fort Jackson in order to pursue ministry, go to seminary, et cetera. Well, we were in Columbia, South Carolina. That was the church I launched onto, which was Grace Life.

which was part of Manna up at Fort Bragg. That's where I would go on to get my endorsement, right? So the timing, God's timing's perfect, right? I was ready to run through that wall way back at Fort Lewis and he was like, not now. Just wait, wait. So yeah, so got out of the army in 2006, did the three year wilderness journey, the seminary, working in the local church, doing that sort of stuff.

assessed to come back in the army as a chaplain and did that in 2010. First station, Fort Bragg, North Carolina. That was my first first duty station, right? I'm at Fort Bragg. Now this is 2010. This is 18 years after basic training. 18 years later, I'm at Fort Bragg, North Carolina. We're at some, it might've been a UMT training or some sort of conference. There was just like,

Pete Stone (33:27.118)
conglomeration of unit ministry teams around and people are just doing the whole shaking hands and waiting for the thing to start kind of thing. And I'm standing there and I see this group of older chaplains, they got the silver in their hair and stuff and they're sitting around talking. And I go, man, that one guy looks familiar. Who is that? And you know, we're all in our digital pattern uniforms at that time. And I kind of do a circle around the room. I want to see the name, can I get a?

glimpse of that name tape and I look over there and it's freaking Routzen, bro. Colonel, 06, full bird. And I went, well, I won't say what I was saying. So I made my way up and the conversation kind of stopped and I think there were three chaplains that were standing there, they'd look over and I just look at Routzen. I just look at him like this.

And he does that. He looks down at my name tape and he goes, like he remember me. Yeah. I got goosebumps. Yeah. Big old hug. Right. He was at the time he was at Bragg, you know. And here I was a chaplain at Fort Bragg, the same place with the guy who led me to Christ. If that's not cool enough, listen to this.

Maybe six months after that, I get a random phone call. I'm in my office at Fort Bragg one day, bing, phone, I pick it up. Hi, is this, is this Chapman Lohorn? I said, yeah. It was a lady. She goes, hi, my name is Nancy Kennedy. She said, I know you don't know me. She said, but I'm an author. I write, I've written a series of books around topics of faith and I'm in the middle of a book right now. And it's called Miracles and Moments. It's.

Miracles and moments of grace, I think, or something. The title was along those lines. She says, I got wind of the story between you and John Routzen. And I'm calling to ask your permission, could I include your story as a chapter in this book that I'm writing? And I was like, yeah, absolutely, of course. And she asked me, hey, could...

Pete Stone (35:49.934)
Would you mind just kind of writing up something that sort of summarizes your relationship, how you met and just give me something like that to go off of and I'll edit it and I'll put it in the chat. I was like, I'd be happy to do that. It had turned out that after that encounter with Routes and at Bragg, after that I had sent him an email. Just, just, it was important for me to capture the significance of what that moment meant for me of coming full circle from.

private at basic training, wayward lost kid to here I am now as a chaplain and I believe with all my heart, God put you on my path, you had a lot to do with that. And so I wrote him an email, right, and just kind of spelled it out, just how important that was for me and thanking him and told him I still have that Bible you gave me and thank you for hanging out with me in the middle of the night on fire guard and when I'm mopping floors and stuff. And so he responded to that email.

I can't remember everything that he said, but the gist of it was he was crying as he read that, just to get a glimpse, for the Father to give him a glimpse of the kingdom, eternal impact that he had had in somebody, just how happy he was for me. Glorifying God. That was the gist of his email, just glorifying God. And it was just a great exchange, albeit through email. So when it comes to Nancy Kennedy, I sent her the email traffic. I was like,

This summarizes it probably better than me writing something original. So she literally took, crazy, not even a year later, I go home from work one day, I had a crappy day, it was Fort Bragg, right? I had a crappy day, went home, and Kristen tells me, hey, something came in the mail for you. And I went, it was an envelope, and I opened it up, and lo and behold, it's a copy of this book.

And I, it's miracles and moments of grace. Nancy Kennedy, I open up the table of contents and I there chapter 17. what did, what did she call it? The chapter she called it something like, fireside chats or something. It was like, you know, fire guard chats or something like that. And I quickly, let me, let me see what it's it was edited, but kind of followed the train of the email traffic between me and John Rousen.

Pete Stone (38:17.102)
Yeah. That's mind -blowing. Thank you for sharing your story. Ask God, man. Ask God. How has that shaped your role in your ministry as a chaplain? Some chaplains grow up in a Christian home or a faith -filled home. Yeah. And you didn't, obviously. How did that impact the way you do chaplaining?

I never give up on anybody. I never write anybody off as a lost cause. I believe that there's nothing beyond the reach of God's redemption. I think individuals matter. And the best for me...

The highlight of ministry for me as a chaplain has always been those one -on -one small encounters of Kingdom deposits and people. It's not the strong bonds. It's not the big things where you're the person out in front. It's not those things, right? I mean, we do those things, but it's not about those things for me.

It's always, and I think it's because of the way that John Routzen worked with me, you know? And the highlight of my time as a chaplain has been those moments where I've seen God move in a person's life.

when no one else saw it, when no one else was around, those one -on -one encounters.

Pete Stone (40:02.99)
Yeah, that's how it shapes my view. You have since gone to family life training. You're a family life chaplain. Can you talk a little bit about that? You've described your year in Ranger Training Battalion as a healing year for you because you're in the North Georgia mountains surrounded by the forest.

Why did you become a family life chaplain? Why did you need a year of healing? Healing from what? Okay. And then from there, I'd kind of like to move into just talk about what it's been like being a garrison chaplain and your philosophy of leadership. If we can kind of. Sure. Yeah. Well, I'll start with the Fort Bragg experience because it kind of works sequentially from there. I think the you know, that was my first term as a chaplain, as a battalion chaplain in the 82nd. In the first time that I ever heard.

about this thing where chaplain majors can track in something, be it ethics, world religions, CPE, family life, whatever. From the first time that I heard that was an option, I gravitated to the idea of family.

ministry flows out of being, I think, and, and, you know, and when you're in the therapy world, when you're in a therapy training environment, you know, you'll hear this idea that a lot of therapists and counselors feel called to that line of work or gravitate to that line of work because of the brokenness in their own lives. And they, and it's sort of like a projection, like I want to get better. So I want other people to get better.

And maybe that's part of it considering the home I grew up in and my experience as a young kid and a teenager and the brokenness of marriage that was just carnage in my family line. I wanted to have a part in salvaging some of that in other people's lives, I guess. So I had always been drawn to family life. But in my time at Fort Bragg,

Pete Stone (42:12.654)
That was three years that crushed my soul. I poured everything like we all do, right, in direct ministry, organizational ministry, fast moving, high op tempo, jumping out of airplanes, just throw a deployment in there, you know, just.

You're doing the 80 second in the 82nd man, you know, and I'm not a guy who drinks the Kool -Aid. I'm not a Kool -Aid drinker never have been. And so so there was part of the culture there that I never bought into that because of that, if you're if you're a person who doesn't drink the Kool -Aid at a place where Kool -Aid is handed out, that makes you late. It kind of makes life hard for you there.

mentally, you know, where do I fit? Do I fit here? Like what I do, you know, this is crazy. So I worked my tail off and I've been, don't get me wrong, made some great relationships there. I saw God do some amazing things there. But by the time I left there three years later, I literally crawl, I low crawled from that place. I was so done. My soul was done. My body was done. I was broken.

I was broken. We had come back from a deployment. We came back from a listen, man. If for the people that are listening to this and not watching it, our producer, Master Sergeant Gillespie came from the 82nd. He's over there laughing right now. His headphones on. He's trying to keep his doing the knob, man. I can see him because anytime I tell that story, anybody who's been to brag and it's like, you know what I'm talking about?

I know, I know. That is kind of a new script. Yeah, I know. So check this out, man. We went on this deployment and when we came back from the deployment, like it's typical, you'll see this sometimes, the whole leadership changes out. The commander goes, the Sgt. Major goes, everybody goes. Everybody in that battalion left but me. And it wasn't because our branch didn't want to move me. It was because we had people there locally who didn't want to let me go. And so I'm there hanging on, hanging on, hanging on.

Pete Stone (44:32.718)
I'm literally a strap hanger in the 82nd hanging on. So we come back from the deployment itself was not a bad deployment as far as deployments go. We didn't lose a lot of guys. It wasn't especially traumatic in that sense. The hardship showed up when we got back to home station, guys losing their minds, right? Drinking all the beer in Fayetteville on a weekend kind of thing, you know, and motorcycles 120 down Manchester Boulevard and just so.

I was the one guy holdover from the potatoes. So the line out my door as a chaplain was nonstop. And it got to a point, Pete, where I became clinically depressed. I was so angry. I was just angry. I was, and why am I still here? Why am I struggling? I'm meeting the demands of all my soldiers. I, there's not enough of me to go around. I just can't do it. Yeah. I'm in kids at the time.

We had all five. Yeah, our fifth was a baby. He was born at Fort Bragg. So he was a baby. Had all the kids and it got to the point, man. I am not kidding you. I would shut the door to my office, flip off the light and hide under my desk.

Pete Stone (45:46.126)
I would go home, I'd pull in the garage at night, late at night, late at night. And the kids were all little, then they'd come out, daddy, daddy, daddy. They hugged me, and I would just, hey kids, I love you. I would just kind of push them away, push them. And I'd walk the length of the house, I can still see it. I'd go down the hall into the master bedroom there. I had my own walk -in closet. I would go in the closet.

Daddy's changing right daddy. Let me get my uniform off and stuff. I'll be out in a minute daddy's I would go in that closet Shut the door behind me I kept a little folding chair in there because it's easier to sit when you're taking boots off especially if you have l4 l5 issues like I do I Would turn off the light and I would sit there with my face in my hands 15 minutes 20 minutes. I was clinically depressed

Pete Stone (46:44.494)
and probably suicidal and probably suicidal looking back I did that over and over and over again invariably there'd be a knock on the door daddy mom says dinner's ready okay I'll be out in a second and then I'd get out I'd put on the face I'd walk down the hall go back to the kitchen and play dad again and it took every it took every ounce of energy to be able to do that to look them in the face it was hard for me to even

muster the physical energy to take my boots off some nights, you know? But I did that over and over and over again. At that time, my wife had this, we kind of had this little routine that we did where we're on different schedules. I'm up and out of the house before she's even awake, right? You know what that's like. And she stayed, she'd stay up way later than me in the nights.

Because she's just she's a night person so it was not uncommon for me to wake up in the morning go out and make my coffee And there'd be a little note most of the time it was hey. I love you. I'm proud of you Thankful for you sometimes it was stuff like hey don't forget so and so's got a ballgame today or tonight or you know just stuff stuff after after long time of me just being in this depressed funk man

I woke up one morning, like I always do, went out to the coffee pot and there was a note and I was like, okay. And I looked at the note and the first thing it said on this note was, what the hell is wrong with you?

That was how she started the note.

Pete Stone (48:23.662)
And then just on about just what she's seeing in me, my disengagement for my family and my kids and what is wrong with you. You're so busy helping other people. You need to go see somebody. You need to go see somebody.

That day I got to my office and I called our brigade psychologist and her name is Gina. I said, Hey Gina, we talked all the time with colleagues. I said, Hey, I got something I want to run past you. She assumed I was going to call her about, I'm calling her about another soldier, you know, just whatever. I said, no, Gina, it's me. I think I need to talk to somebody. She said, come on over. And I went and I sat with Gina and God bless her, man. She.

She gave me all the assessments, you know, I took all the stuff and she said, you're depressed and you're anxious. I was like, that feels about right, you know. I was on anti anxiety meds, anti depression meds for about three months. I just, I had, I was just, I had to recalibrate. I had, there was something, something was not right within me and I had to get out of that place.

and in.

So when I finally, when the local leadership there, and I'm talking local chaplain leadership there, when they finally said, law horn can leave, it had been, it had been working these, this idea of me going to RTB ranger, ranger training brigade. Cause you're already ranger. Cause I had been an infantry. Yeah. I was already qualified. You had to be qualified to go there. They asked me if I wanted to go to Dillonica.

Pete Stone (50:10.286)
to be in fifth and I was like, absolutely, absolutely. So we went there and I remember I was a ghost when I first showed up there and I took about three weeks of leave between, you know, leaving Bragg and signing in over there and my family and I, we just got, we got a cabin in the woods. We got a cabin in the woods, way up in the mountain. You could look down and hear the stream. You could see the deer. And I went out there every morning.

with my coffee and my notebook, man, and I just prayed. I just asked God to refill me. And I came across Psalm 107, Psalm 107, somewhere out at sea, somewhere, you know. There's a verse in there.

He quieted the storms, he calmed the sea, and he guided them to the harbor that they longed for. And that just resonated with me out there on that deck of that cabin. And I prayed, God, make this the harbor I long for, what my soul needs, what my soul needs. And two years in Dilanaga, I loved it.

To this day, probably my favorite assignment just for what it meant in my soul. And just, you know, it was away from the flag bar. Our headquarters was down at Benning or Fort Moore. I was just up there, man. And just ministering. It was just me and a small little unit of, I think, 200, maybe not even 200 cadre and their families. And so it was...

you know, low hanging fruit for the gospel with the Meranger students, man, you know, just, I just saw people were giving their lives to Jesus. I was going out to do services for them. And I just, it's two years, it revived my soul. Not to say it was an easy place where I didn't have difficulty there. That was the first kind of run -in I got into sharing Jesus and sharing my faith with people, made the news and some other things. But...

Pete Stone (52:24.398)
Real quick, did you do anything wrong? No, did you get no just someone didn't like your approach to suicide prevention training? That's what it was. Yeah. Yeah religious or Yeah, I would language or something. Yeah. Yeah there something like I I had given a handout I think what it came down to I'd given a handout as part of my class my block of instruction and on one side of it it was it to save trees I

I printed things on both sides of paper. And on one side of it, it was like all your typical Army resources for suicide. It was ACS, it was -flags, it was all the stuff, right? And on the other side, there was a, I put some verses in there and some things that, because in the process of me doing suicide prevention training, I always tell my story. I tell my story of me in the closet, in the dark with my face in my hands where I don't have, right? And, and...

And I always share that. And then I share, Hey, this is what helped me. This is what I did. This is what, this is what worked for me to pull me out of that place to renew my sense of meaning and hope and purpose. This is what I did. So I had those on two sides, right? And what, what had happened was somebody took a picture with their phone of that particular side of the paper with a couple of purses on it that I had leaned on.

during my dark times and uploaded that onto, what's the website? There was the Mickey Weinstein. Mikey Weinstein. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I can't remember exactly what it was. And with the caption on the picture of, look what I'm being forced to listen to in a mandatory army training. So that's how it, that came to the attention of.

PAO down at Fort Benning, right? And then, and then commander's job took on a life of its own before you know it. A letter of concern, a letter of concern. Yeah. Yeah. Letter of, letter of concern. but yeah, that all amounted to nothing. It was a very difficult thing to go through there.

Pete Stone (54:45.262)
But it was, and it was right up against the PCS to leave to Launaga to go to see more. Yeah. I went, I went to see four from there. Nothing came of that. By the way, that wasn't the first time that happened to me. but, but Deloniga to get back to what Delonica was for me, it was the heart. It was the Harbor that I longed for. It gave me new energy and new sense of call as a, as a chaplain and just.

Yeah, that's what I needed healing. Then of course, C4 from there. Then you went to family life after C4, another job, then family life. Yeah. And what was that like? How did that shape your... I'd love to get into kind of how you...

Steward yourself now how you maintain mental physical health like the routines we've talked about but also your philosophy of leadership and How that has prepared you for the life as a garrison chaplain? Yeah, I will first of all I don't think anything prepares you for the life as garrison chaplain anywhere Much much much less than why yeah, you're you're not ready. You think you're ready. You're not ready. Yeah I knew I wasn't ready because it's not just

You're just, it's not just, I'm doing ministry. It's bureaucracy. man. Yeah. And layers and layers of bureaucracy. I'll talk about that in a second. I don't want to talk bad about it. I just, the reality of it. It is what it is. Yeah. It's a different world. It's just a different world. You're not an Italian chaplain jumping out of airplanes. No, you're not. Hanging out with Sergeant Snuffy. No. Talking about their life. You're actually dealing with contracts and... Yeah. It's a lot of stuff, but that...

Yeah, the family life experience, like I said, it was something I was always drawn to from the first time I heard of it. And no regrets. I loved, loved, loved the experience of going through the family life training. Where did you do your utilization? So I went through the family life training program at Fort Nao Cavasos, which is through Texas A University, Central Texas. And then when I finished the program, I stayed at

Pete Stone (56:59.374)
It was Fort Hood at the time. I stayed there. Fort Hood is one of those bigger places that has multiple family life chaplains. Of course, you've got your Garrison family life chaplain, but at Fort Hood, we had two additionals. We had one who was in first cab division, which also was double -headed as the deputy. And then the 13th ESC was another operational unit that had a slot for a family life slash deputy command chaplain.

And so I stayed as the 13th ESC family life slash deputy command chaplain. So that's where I did the utilization. It was supposed to be for three years. I got cut short. I got moved about two and a half years in. Yeah, but loved that experience and have no regrets doing it. And, and, it, I believe that family life training has very broad application beyond just one on one in the counseling room. I believe it has.

Just the things that you learn about systems and family systems, just the way systems work. And I think it has universal application army -wide. Yeah. So how has it shaped you personally? It's opened my, well, knowledge is power, right? And so if you, you know, in the training that I received about relationships and systems and

how they work in marriages and family histories and, and, and, dynamics and households and relationships and all that kind of thing. One thing that it immediately made me do is, is have a different appreciation for, for my own family line and in a, in a greater understanding of where they came from and how they were shaped. And, and, it, I guess in a way it made me less judgmental and more empathetic.

to the people who came before me and my family. So that was good. It gave me broader understanding of who the law horns were. The other thing that it made me do is it made me real sensitive to things that happened at my own kitchen table. The way my kids would talk to each other or just kind of the way that we reacted as parents and all these. I'm aware now of all these things that are potentially at stake by an offhanded comment. So it made me more sensitive to that.

Pete Stone (59:23.406)
Kristen laughs at me when, you know, I'll be like, don't say that, that could have long lasting repercussions. But then like I said, the thing that I think I appreciate.

to say the most, but another great thing about it is just it helped me to see the army differently. And it helped me to, you know, just to see systems and how things connect, how things connect. And it, and it, and it lended, I think it lends credibility. Like when I talk to a commander or a leader, helping them to, you know, like impacts and effects on people and productivity and things like.

relationships and dynamics and organizations and teams and culture and all the things that we talk about and say that are important. Half of us don't understand how it works or really what's at stake. It gave me some broader vision on that stuff. So what's your philosophy of leadership? How did that evolve?

And then what is it? How does it shape how you lead? How you minister? Listen, I, you know, I obviously I did not have a lot of great role models growing up in terms of just how to be men, how to be men. Leadership, I think, is first taught and learned in the home principles of that, whether whether taught or caught or both. I didn't have that. And to be honest with you.

in all my time in the army, whether as an enlisted soldier or as a line officer of some sort.

Pete Stone (01:01:11.278)
I could probably tell you that most...

I've not had the greatest leadership. I've not seen the greatest leadership. I've seen a lot of technically proficient and competent people who know a lot of stuff, who know their craft, who know their jobs. but in my, and I'm just talking for myself. I have not personally been subject to many people at all. In fact, I could probably count them on one hands, one hand.

the people directly in relationship with me professionally that I would say, now that is a freaking.

that I would trust the whole of my life with because I think that's what leadership is. I think that's what leadership is. So I haven't had a lot of mentors and models direct, right? But what I have done is I've done the self work. Probably my greatest passion in life is learning. I love learning.

I'm always reading, always studying. I have, I've studied the greats. I've read the greats. I've, and just drawing my own experiences and practicing things and experimenting with things. And I've seen things that work and I see things that don't. I think here's, here's where I'm at now. After having said all of that.

Pete Stone (01:02:54.19)
And in fairness, I've had a handful of really great examples, right? But in a 27 year career, is that a good number? I don't know. It's the exception, not the rule. That's what it's been, Pete. That's what it's been. A lot of managers out there. How many leaders are out there? Real leaders. To me, I think, and this is probably family life oriented.

I believe that the greatest question any leader can ever ask him or herself is this, what do people experience when they're in my presence? Is that a family life question? Not necessarily. That's a really powerful question. Not necessarily, but here's where I'm coming. Will you repeat it again? That's worth repeating. I think the greatest question that any leader can ask him or herself on a daily basis, what...

do people experience when they're in my presence?

Pete Stone (01:03:56.398)
People don't remember what you say. They don't remember what you did, but they always remember how you make them feel, how you make them feel. And there's a, we all give off an energy, right? Of either openness or closeness, either hurried or patient, either short, quick tempered or kind, accessible. Am I available? Right? If I walk into a leader's office,

unannounced just to ask a question or to get some guidance and I feel like I'm putting them off and they hardly look at me because they're in the middle of something. They're typing on a keyboard that communicates something to me that makes me feel a certain way that makes me feel I'm in the way here. Right. I don't like that feeling. I want to walk into a room and I want a leader who embraces me figuratively. Right. Like I I'm the most important thing in that moment.

That's hard. That's so hard. Like you got a mission to accomplish. Yeah, you do. How do you do that? I do it. I do it. I practice that. I do it, man. And I tried to, you know, and I'm sure I failed at that more times than I would even want to know. But I think that's I think that's where it starts. It's an awareness and a sensitivity. When I walk into a room, are people glad I'm there?

Does the conversation change? Do they feel they can be authentic in front of me? Can they have their opinions? Can they be free to be themselves? Do I put them at that kind of ease where we have a relationship and it's a safe space to be who you are? You're not a nuisance, you're not in the way. I'm here for you, right? So I think that's where it starts. How do I make people feel? How do I make people feel?

Because it can go in one of two directions after that. Our effectiveness as a team, our effectiveness in a relationship. If you feel like you can't be yourself or you have to put up a front or you've got to walk around on eggshells to try to figure me out as a leader, we're already behind the power curve of effectiveness in the relationship. And then I think the other piece of that, which is huge for me, is the difference between being a transactional leader and a transformational leader.

Pete Stone (01:06:17.646)
You hear people talk about that all the time, but what does it mean? I think at the end of the day, there's always a choice that we have to make as leaders. What is my priority here? Is my priority results or is my priority the relationship? I happen to believe that the relationship supersedes the results. If I nurture the relationship in a healthy, stewarding kind of way, the results will take care of themselves. Right? But...

But if I'm only focused on results and Pete, what are you doing for me today? Did you get that thing done yesterday? Right? I'm the boss. You're not. You answer to me. It's transactional. Everything is transactional. It's not personable. It's not based on love for sure. Right. And the way that we understand what, what that is like, transformational leadership is different. It seeks to see potential in another person and to challenge that so that that person can become because of your influence in your leadership.

the very best version of themselves that they can be, not just in the nine to five, but as a person. Like I want my people to win. This is what I tell them, right? I trust you. I want to help you win. And I want you doing what you were created to do. That's my, that's my credo to every person. I rate senior rate, I sit down and that's what I tell. I want to help you win, Pete. I want you to win as a husband. I want you to win as a follower of God. I want you to win as a dad.

And I want you to win and what you feel called your calling is your vocation, whatever that happens to be. And because God has, has, has ordained it that I'm here to be your leader. It's my job to help you get there. Not thinking about what's good for me or what's best for me or what the best results are for me, or even the organization. See, I think it's inverted. If I'm thinking about you and focused on you and getting you to be your very best version of yourself. The team wins the result wins.

We get there. Yeah. I think I don't know that anyone would disagree with that. The results in the relationship thing, I can see where people might say, yeah, that's great. But you've got to have results, especially in the military culture where everything's performance -based. Yeah, we don't trust it. We'll say it, but we don't trust it. At the end of the day, we won't trust it. Yes. Yes.

Pete Stone (01:08:42.926)
But I do think that when you operate within the context of that trust, where I feel empowered, I feel trusted and supported, it energizes me toward results. When people are coming to the table with the right heart and with integrity. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, honestly, I think it's the difference between a growth mindset and a fixed mindset.

I think it has everything to do with it, right? If I'm operating under a fixed mindset, there's only success and failure, and it's one or the other, right? You're measured by what you do today. There you go. And there is an extent to which we have to assess performance. For sure. It's a part of accountability and responsibility. I don't think that's what you're saying not to do. Right, right, right, right. But what you're saying is the posture that a leader has. But a fixed mindset is focused on that.

And not the process that gets you to that. There you go. Yeah, there you go. I got to tell you. Well, we've all got stories of leaders who have led us in a way that liberated us and inspired us. And I was just I failed a year ago on a mission. It was public. It was embarrassing. It was humiliating. I just did not show up at the right place at the right time. And it was very obvious that I wasn't there. And my boss, my.

the chief of staff called me later that night and I was dreading the phone call. I didn't ever want to see him again, but I had to. And he called me and as soon as I saw his name on the caller ID, I was like, here it is. And it was late at night, I stayed at the office, I didn't want to go home. It was just so publicly humiliating. And I picked up the phone, I answered, I said, sir, I'm so sorry, I don't even have words to tell you what happened.

And he was like, Pete, stop it. Do 10 pushups and I don't ever want you to think about it again. And he laughed and he made a big joke out of it. In fact, he had a really funny joke about the situation, about my failure. And he said, I told the CG this joke and it was hilarious. He's like, really? I just, I called to tell you, I want to see how you're doing. There you go. And then, and he was a, he was a high performing guy. It's like, man, when he's, I wanted to like, what can I do for you? Yeah.

Pete Stone (01:11:05.902)
And I'll never forget that. Amen. Yeah, so I think that's the transformational leader that you're talking about. Absolutely. It's valuing, rather than hitting me over the head. Man, that was really dumb. You made me look dumb. Right, right, right. It was all about, he focused his attention on how I was doing. The relationship. Yeah, it was the relationship. And the results will bear fruit from that. The results will never be better than the relationship. Yeah, that's good. Say that again. Our results will never be better.

than our relationships. Is that a law hornism? I think so. Yeah, I don't know. I'm sure someone wrote it, but it's so good. I got a notebook full of it. No, that's good. Results will never be better than our relationships. Right. I mean, not just at work, but about at home, everywhere. Yeah. It's along the lines of proximity will determine our influence. Yeah.

proximity to someone emotionally relationally you know determine the influence we have from them or through them there you go because a lot of time Your leadership is an extension of yourself through your team. Yeah Hey, you know just along along those lines man that I've been thinking about this and I think it corresponds to what we're talking about here just this idea of relationships and just how Critic critical those are to be maintained is we all live in a perpetually

Burning building. And the one thing we gotta save always is love.

Pete Stone (01:12:37.518)
When you look at the world, everything that's happening around, whether it's across the globe or right here in Hawaii, the world's on fire. The world's on fire. And the thing we gotta think about salvaging is love. That's the one thing we gotta run back into the building to get. That's it.

That's it. That's good. You and I see eye to eye on a lot of things. I think we see the world the same way we approach things a similar way. We've had a lot of conversations about the world. And if we could just close, I'd like for you to hear you talk about where you think the world is, why we're hurting, why we as a nation are hurting. And specifically, you've talked about how you have a quote, and I think I actually have come up...

with the same quote on my own. And you said it the other day at your spiritual fitness breakfast. I think you said it. We've never, or I can't remember when you said it. We've never had it so good and been more miserable. How do you say it? Yeah, well, I mean, this is just the way I think about it. I mean, here we are in the year of our Lord 2024. Human species has been around a long time and, you know, and as a species we've come a long way. I mean, if you think about,

all of our progress and advancements in things like medicine, technology, education, just where we are, right? I mean, we've never had more convenience. We've never had, life has never been better, right? So I think the, but.

We've never had higher statistics of depression, anxiety, substance abuse, right? All the harmful things that we know exist in our society. And I was just thinking, how ironic is that? And the way that I say it, sort of tongue in cheek, but I think it's meaningful as a species, we've never had it better or hated it more.

Pete Stone (01:14:50.158)
That's it. We've never had it better and hated it more. And hated it more. Yeah, it's an epidemic of hopelessness, I think. Yeah. What's the answer? Obviously, two followers of Christ, we think that the relationship with God through Christ is the answer. But what do you say to someone who doesn't see things through the lens of faith? Yeah, and I respect that.

I don't have all the answers to the world's problems. I'm not a political man. I would never draw lines or distinctions along political musings at all. We've never had it better. Okay, well, what I would say is maybe we need to reassess for ourselves. What does it mean to have it better? What does it mean to have it better? Where are we seeking for?

What are the things we're hoping are going to bring us happiness and satisfaction? How are we defining things like six? What does it mean to be successful? What does that mean? What does that mean to live in the modern world in a way where we're not craving the things that are better that ultimately are making us hate it? You know, it's like we're.

You know, and I think this applies in society and as a culture, but I feel it's no different in the army too. You know, being in the military, it's like a subset of it in my mind, it's the way my brain works, but how do you, maybe if I'm hating it, maybe I need to reassess what it is that I think is better. You know, what I'm pursuing as the better.

And maybe I'm pursuing the wrong thing. Yeah. Reminds me of your red carpet moment. You were doing everything you wanted. You were free. You were absolutely free. Yeah. But you were a slave. Absolutely. You were miserable. Absolutely. The ropes were entangled around me. The ropes of shoal. I read that somewhere. Yeah. That's my red carpet experience. Loosen these bonds, man. Loosen these bonds.

Pete Stone (01:17:15.758)
So, as we finish, this has been great. Thank you. If there's a Chaplain, a young Chaplain or a new Chaplain, maybe not, maybe an older Chaplain who's been around for a while. I've been around for a while, I'm enjoying it, this is inspiring to me. But what's your word of advice to Chaplains in this day and age and in this moment that we are operating in?

I get really excited every time you pull out your digital ink planner because I know something good is about to come because you spend hours and hours working. I do, man. I do. I do.

Well, I think this is important to remember for everybody.

And, but probably especially so who are caregivers of other people like chaplains. I would say the first thing that I've learned kind of the hard way is that to remember your first priority mission as the one under your own.

It's not your unit, despite how they make you feel. Despite the emails and the inbox and the phone, your first priority mission is the one under your own roof. And there will work. I'm going to give an answer.

Pete Stone (01:18:43.214)
for God, right? No matter how good I do as a chaplain, no matter how far I go, or whatever the line of work is, right? If I'm investing, well, look what I did over here. I think God's gonna wanna say, God's gonna say, Adam, where are you? So I think that's the first thing. You need to settle that right off the bat. Your first priority mission is the one under your own roof. And then the other thing that I think about,

And I learned this a long time ago. You know, you, we, we live in an age where, you know, you got to be all things, all people, or the world can make you feel that way. You're a pastor, you're a chaplain, right? My unit's doing this or Garrison's doing this. I got so many things to do. Where do I need to be? I'm all the mission never stops. The job never stops. And you can feel like, and I got there, right? I learned that the hard way at Fort Bragg. And here's the, here's the big lesson that came out of that. When I was crawling under my desk.

on anti -depressant meds, who was I helping? With the door shut, praying the phone doesn't ring again, I wasn't helping anybody, right? Here's what I learned. What the world needs is not more of you. What the world needs is a more healthy you. The best version of you. Yes, right. That's right. The very best of you. So what's the, you know, what do you infer from that? You have to take care of yourself.

You have to be disciplined in your boundaries. You have to figure out what works for you, because it looks different for every person. But how? And people say this all the time, this is not rocket science or new to take care of yourself physically, or it's not a new idea to keep yourself sharp and awakened and clear spiritually and psychologically, emotionally, financially, all the rest. That's not new information.

What it comes down to, are you going to have the courage to do it? Because sometimes it takes courage to put your phone on silent for an hour. You might miss a call. OK. Right? Because the world will lie to you. It'll make you feel like it needs all of you. That's a myth. That's a lie. It's a lie from the enemy. What the world needs is not more of you. It needs a more healthy you.

Pete Stone (01:21:02.254)
So whatever it takes for you to be the best version, your holistically healthy self, you have to preserve that. You have to have a plan. You can't just talk about it. Plan it out, write it out, put it on paper, communicate it. Hey boss, this is what I do. Right? So if you're trying to get a hold of me and you don't, I'm probably doing one of these two or three things, right? But I'll call you back. Right? You can do that. You can do that.

the other thing that I'll say, and I just had this conversation, you know, as the Garrison chaplains, sometimes captain chaplains like to find me, talk to me. I'm not in their technical chain, right? It's easy to find this other old guy and ask questions and stuff. We hear this all the time. You know, you got to balance the officer part of you and the pastor part of you and absolutely true. Absolutely true. I, the thing that I, that I tell younger chaplains.

is absolutely you need to hone your craft as an officer. You need to hone your craft. You need to learn that. You need to learn about staff integration. You need to learn about MDMP. You need to learn about operations. You need to learn how the army works. You need to learn all these systems and programs. You need to learn all, you got to hone your craft, right? That's what part of being a professional is, hone your craft. But default to being a minister.

Let that be your default. What I've seen in the year since I've been in the army is that there's been a pendulum swift shift. When I first came in and even back in my line officer days, chaplains were just chaplains. They were pastors, right? And there was like this, whether it was overt or not, there was this desire on the part of the army, we need chaplains to be more officer -like.

We need them more capable in our talks. We need them to know how to fund, right? And so when I first came in as a chaplain, it was like this big push and people were talking about, we need to be better officers. And I think the pendulum, I'm, I'm sensing that the pendulum has swung completely in the other direction. And part of that is probably from my perspective as a garrison chaplain, it's seeing, seeing how this plays out. Right. And I could be wrong. I'm just, it's one guy's perspective, but I think we're defaulting now to the.

Pete Stone (01:23:18.578)
I'm making a generalization. This isn't everybody and it's certainly not meant to be attributional. We're defaulting to the officer stuff and to the detriment of our abilities to just be a pastor to people and to love people. That's why we exist. That's why we that's why you wear a cross or some other religious emblem on your shirt. That distinct yes. Yes. So at the end of the DB be the best officer you can be and hone your craft. Absolutely. At the end of the day that hey man in the bills.

to be the distinctive religious leader. Absolutely. And I think I, and speaking of stories in my first term at the 82nd, I had only been there for a few months, man. And I didn't know, I didn't know hardly anybody. We were at a function where an 06 chaplain was retiring and I don't remember who it was. And I don't remember the exact circumstance. I don't remember everything he said, except for one thing he said, and it's, you know, we did the rah rah rah, congratulations, gave him his medal and he speech time. And he said,

I wish I told more people about Jesus.

Pete Stone (01:24:22.542)
I've been a chaplain for all three months and in my head I went, how's that even possible? How's that even possible? Well, now I know. You can get to a place, you can get so roped into the workings and the trappings of the Institute of being in the military that you forget what you're there to do.

Right? And that's the other piece of it. So hone your craft as an officer, but default to being a minister of whatever particular faith you are. Be true to that. And the other place, the other thing that I tell people is resist at all costs, recognize and resist the trappings of institution. Don't worry about your OER. Don't worry about your assignments. Don't worry about your promotions. All of the business of personnel.

You know, and I'm using those as examples. I can't tell you how many times I'm walking around or people are talking to me and the focus of their conversation is, hey, my OERs, I'm thinking about this, you know, my next assignment, you know, I'm trying to get over here. I'd like to see this happen. You know, my board's coming out next, whatever, whatever, right? It's like, man, do you just walk around thinking about your file? Is that what, to me, that's institution.

That's that's institution and it makes me throw up a little bit in my mouth. It really like all that stuff is there. It's a worldly system. It's a worldly system that exists. And of course we play by all those rules and I and I get all that but but resist that that you know remember why you're here and remember that God is bigger than DoD and he's got a plan for your life and you know.

Do the absolute best you can, learn how to play the game. But don't just walk around with that. That's the central thing that you're thinking about. I got to get the right OER. I got to get the right promotion. I got to get the right assignment. I think it's detrimental. One, to your soul. Forget what you're doing and why you're here. Become transactional with yourself. Absolutely. Great way to say it.

Pete Stone (01:26:36.942)
And then the last thing that I would tell people is, like I said, we live in a perpetually burning building. The world is on fire. People are lost and hurt and broken. We've never hated it more, right? People hate it.

Don't confuse relevance with sameness.

Pete Stone (01:27:02.03)
I don't have to look the same as everybody else. I don't have to fall into the same traps of stress and burnout and anxiety and overwork and overindulgence. And I don't, I can do that.

I can fall into the trap of believing that I need to be like everybody else and look like everybody else and live like everybody else because I'm trying to be relevant, trying to get my seat at the table in my organization or my unit as a chaplain. I don't think that's what they need. I think the best way to relevance is if you call yourself a man or a woman of faith and you have this in and you know what it's like to live a godly life because it says so in the scriptures and this you ought to live and look different.

When everybody else is at the office till eight o 'clock at night when you know you really don't have to, what are you doing there? Be different, go home to your wife and kids. Take care of that first priority mission. Don't confuse relevance with sameness. In fact, I think the best way to be relevant is to be that light in the dark. Be okay to look different. If you're a chaplain, be okay to look different and maybe, maybe, just maybe your personal example.

will inspire someone because guess what? If you're living the way God tells us to live, I happen to believe that'll prove right in the end. And I think you can do that in the army, despite what people have you to believe.

like it. That's great. That's where I'm at. That's where I'm at. Sir, thank you so much for your story is inspiring. It's encouraging. I think it's filled with hope that God is never done with us. Amen to that. And thank you for... He's not done with me. Yeah, thank you for letting him grab a hold of your life and never being done with other people around you.

Pete Stone (01:28:56.398)
and pouring out your life into us for the last several years. So God bless you and thank you, sir. I love you, brother. I love you, sir. Thank you. God bless.