[CHAP] Gary Fisher - Moral Injury and Looking Back

Pete Stone (00:01.102)
Chaplain Fisher, thank you so much for putting on civilian clothes and driving up from the slums of Fort Shafter to visit us here in our Highland Retreat at Schofield Barracks. It's great to be with you, thank you. Yeah, and thanks for adjusting the weather where it's not raining. Every time I come up here it seems to be raining. Yeah, we are in the valley. We get lots of rain. But that's why everything is so verdant and lush.

Anyway, so Chaplain Fisher, the first time I met you was when I was, this was probably in 2011, so 11, what is that, 13 years ago. I was at Fort Polk going through JRTC as a chaplain, a young chaplain. I'd only been in the army literally like two years or two and a half years. And you were the OC during that time and you gave us a block of instruction. And I'll never forget, as a young chaplain I was...

with the raucousons of the 101st going through GRTC, we were about to deploy, didn't know what to expect in that deployment, I'd just gotten back from a different deployment, and you really spoke from your heart, and you shared about some of your experiences in combat as a combat chaplain, and some of the grief that you experienced and that your soldiers experienced, and you provided a block of instruction basically on, hey guys, this is how you write a memorial service.

for soldiers and commanders who have just lost someone or several soldiers. And I wrote notes and I have followed that pattern that you gave ever since then. So from my first impression of you, very pastoral, very competent, very capable. And obviously now that you are the USAR PAC chaplain, you've demonstrated a career of great leadership and excellence. So thank you so much for.

coming back 13 years later to have this conversation. 13 years, that's hardly, I can wrap my mind around that. It doesn't seem that long time. But my heart for combat ministry is where it's all started and where it continues. And I pray that in the future, we don't have to see combat at any level. There's a lot going on in the globe, obviously, a very dangerous time and very tense for our nation and national security concerns.

Pete Stone (02:26.83)
But I vividly remember sharing those stories and that block of instruction, not with just your rotation, but 23 other rotations, trying to help young chaplains how to prepare for that. Because while you're in the midst of it, it's a lot harder to prepare because you don't have a lot of time and focus. Yeah. Well, thank you for that. You know, we've got these questions prepared.

Yes, but this is the nature of these conversations and why I love them so much. I just instantly I'm going to some other things I'd like to touch on very quickly and we'll come back to this and hopefully this will be the first of many conversations as we unpack your experience with As a chaplain dealing with trauma you're writing a book right now or can you share briefly? Yeah, it's a the book is being co -authored by myself an army chaplain

with four deployments in combat and a pastor in central Texas, Round Rock, Texas, at North Hills Baptist Church. And it's Pastor Jeremy Vandalinder, who's had served many years as a first responder chaplain in the EMT. We felt like there needed to be a book that wasn't incredibly clinical, but also wasn't overwhelmingly theological to help.

A service member or firefighter or their family members understand what's going on within the whole person when someone is experiencing trauma, whether it's, you know, highway doing recovery and work in on the streets or in the streets and combat. And so that's been a heartbeat. We've been working on it for like three years. It's finally coming to fruition. We should have the book out either this fall or early next year. Yeah.

Could you briefly allude to why you started writing this book? I know that's probably another conversation, but maybe that's just, we'll invite people to come back for other conversations. Well, over my many assignments and a lot of them intense and key leadership assignments, I found myself, and providentially so I believe, as the corps chaplain at III Corps at Fort Hood or now Cavazos.

Pete Stone (04:46.126)
during the whole Vanessa Gian challenge in a command that didn't necessarily feel that they needed chaplains, kind of marginalized me and marginalized chaplains across the installation. And I feel confident that I can speak freely to that because that was really the command climate. It was very, very tough to be a chaplain trying to provide clear advisement to a command that wasn't sure about itself, assure about...

what's going on in the environment, as well as, you know, wanting to hear hard things. So I is through that whole trial over those months and COVID that I realized that I didn't have a lot of my life or anything in my life that wasn't touched by the army. And then as I was looking at how many years I had left before I retired, I kind of really needed to do some soul searching and dig deep to try to figure out my identity apart from the army.

And clearly my identity is in Christ, but I haven't done, I hadn't up to that point really done some hard work searching the scripture, spending quality time in prayer, spending earnest conversation with my wife and trying to figure out, okay, who am I? What am I about? Because I'm more than just the army and I'm more than just an army chaplain. I am someone who was specifically called uniquely trained to serve in this capacity. And we saw some great fruit out of.

all the sadness of Fort Hood when they started firing people and all kinds of things were occurring. So out of that, this pastor and I, I had done my UT fellowship at the University of Texas for the War College. And my topic was moral injury. So he and I spent a lot of times talking. And our spouses, one night when we were just playing games around the kitchen table, they said, you guys should write a book.

Well, we kind of laughed it off. And then about the time I was doing all this soul searching, he reached out to me and it's like, what do you think? We could write this book together. And that's what started the journey where we're using a core curriculum that he was using with firefighters. We added some of my training and teaching to it. And we've been working on the chapters and trying to get it. And we're using Morgan James, a publisher out of New York City.

Pete Stone (07:10.222)
So this is not self -published. This is something that has gone through the rigors of being a quality product that I think people will find refreshing and easy to read and easy to apply. I'm going to put you on the spot here. So going through a program a few years ago at Wesley Theological Seminary, I took a course on moral injury. And it seems like moral injury is one of those things that is so broad and in some ways squishy.

everyone has their own model of it and everyone has their own definition. What's your operating definition for moral injury? I'm real simple. I'm real practical. I'm not incredibly clinical or enormously theological with it. To me, it's broken moral expectation. So if I, as a man, have an expectation that I need to provide something for my family and I don't for whatever reason, and I'll give you an example. My wife, I was at work.

And my wife had the kids around the kitchen table. We have five kids and they're all close in age. And she was bringing hot water over from the stove to make oatmeal in those little packets, which back then they were fresh and novel. And when she did, she bumped the edge of a chair and poured the boiling water on my daughter. So the expectation as a good mother is that you do not do harm to your child.

And her working through the grief of what happened and then our daughter's recovery and it was complete and total. She had no lasting harm because of the boiling water. But she did have second and third degree burns over most of her front and her arm. And went from four, you know, the four by four gauze bandages from like 14 to 15 of those all the way down to two and three. And we were, it was an amazing thing to see.

and God's creation heal itself through that process. But that broken moral expectation of a mother who doesn't harm her child or put her child in danger can lead to moral injury. And we try to do that in combat, right? So when we're faced in a situation, especially as a trigger puller, you're faced in a situation where you have one second to assess the threat, another second to make a decision, and then you make that decision in the third second. Those three seconds have

Pete Stone (09:35.566)
lasting impact, whether it's a soldier who kills a child because they are a threat, or they kill someone they think is a threat and they find out that they were a non -combatant. Those kinds of things are just cursory examples of what soldiers have to deal with in combat, and also firefighters have to deal with when they're trying to recover people from accidents or get them out of the home.

I wish I could have done more. I didn't do enough. Whatever the expectation is that they built up in themselves, either because of their values or their beliefs or how they were raised, has a real challenge for us. And I think I came to moral injury as a skeptic, but the more I realized and the more I studied, I saw it in myself. So moral injury is directed inward. Sometimes it can also be directed outward if...

Someone else does not maintain the moral order the way that we expect injured by their yeah, I'm putting on the spot Sorry, but just some practical application here yesterday My my five -year -old daughter Wow eight -year -old son we live in the woody's here on skill field barracks if you know anything about the woody's there's chickens everywhere I was over there this morning. You probably met the chicken reception company

And so it's chick hatching season, I guess. I don't know. There's chicks everywhere. You can hardly step without stepping on a chick. So my kids were out in the side yard and a few days before they had seen a chick being pecked by a hen and leaving it behind and going off with the other chicks. And they kept trying to help find someone to adopt the chick, some other hen. So they...

I'm not saying they did or they didn't. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't pick up the chick. There's rules. Maybe we broke him, maybe we didn't. I wasn't there. Anyway, so they tried to get the chick in a locale of another hen and they thought that they were successful. And then two days later, just yesterday, they were out and they found the same little yellow chick with a broken neck and flopping around and a blinded eye. Wow.

Pete Stone (12:01.198)
and my daughter was traumatized and they picked it up and they brought it in a box and I just walked home for lunch and my wife is like get ready so my daughter my five -year -old daughter and I look inside and the chick is in pain it's neurological damage it's just in pain and it's chirping and it's just just horrible yeah is that moral injury for my daughter living in a world where she believes God's in control?

Well, it really is an injury. Whether or not it's moral injury is something that develops over time. But it's a moral expectation that in God's good universe, God takes care of his creatures. And so there's a moral injury at that fiber, right? So that's moral injury. I think so. That's why I phrase it broken moral expectations. Because if you have an expectation that my leadership is not going to put me in a situation...

that is going to compromise my values or beliefs. And that happens, then it's broken. If I'm a five -year -old girl who is kind of tender to everything in the world, and this event with the chick occurs, what do I do with that? I think that's where the injury is. And ultimately, as a believer and as a chaplain and a pastor, that the atonement is the ultimate answer.

So whether I lose a child by accident or in childbirth or they die before their time or something else occurs in life that I have a hard time bringing meaning to, the ultimate solution for any of those things is the atonement. And I think that's what we try to convey in the book ultimately, is that these are the things that we understand to be true about what's happening in your body, soul or spirit.

And these are how you can process it and and bring some understanding and meaning to it But ultimately it's our God and our relationship with him that will allow your daughter to figure out the meaning in this event and Other events that are likely to occur in our life that kind of breaks the moral expectation. That's how I would describe it. Yeah well

Pete Stone (14:20.814)
So it's a faith -based book rooted in the Christian tradition? There is a faith aspect to it, but we're not trying to pick a fight with anybody that believes otherwise. So a non -faith person could pick up the book and find value in it? Right. So a lot of the faith aspects in the book as it's designed right now is that it will refer to the appendix for a deeper dive on the aspects of the faith perspective. So reading the book or reading the individual chapters,

It will refer to our walk, our faith walk in practice and our belief and how we've kind of grown up in the faith because it's integral to our story. And we're not going with a category in the bookstore that's faith -based for that reason. We want it to be available for a wider audience. That's good. Thank you for doing this work.

You know, I think this is going to be a teaching point where we talk about, hey, the world is not as it should be. And point, use that as a touch point for the cross. And we're about to enter the Jewish Passover holiday and talk about how Jesus was the Passover lamb. He was the lamb. He became the chick that was slaughtered for all of our moral wrongdoing.

So pray for me as you think about that conversation that it'll be a really powerful touch point for my daughter in her earliest recollection. Well, and it's a memory that I'm sure is going to stay with her. Even though my daughter, when she was a burn, she was four, four and a half. And she doesn't have any memory. And nor does her body bear any of those scars. But my wife and I will never forget it. And in my life, part of my...

story to the chaplaincy is that my earliest memories when my dad came home from a deployment and I didn't know who it was. So it's interesting how our memories are, you know, burned in at an early age. That striking image of a person in our home that I knew his voice because we had cassette tapes that he made while he was deployed to Vietnam. But when he came into our home, it was real shocking for me. And it took me about

Pete Stone (16:43.086)
three or four days to warm up to him. How old were you? Do you remember? I was probably four or five years old. I don't remember exactly, but my earliest memories, and we were stationed in Japan at Yukota Air Force Base in the late 60s and early 70s. So it was sometime during that time frame where he had been gone flying over Vietnam and had been gone for months and months and months, and then he came home.

He was a pilot or a crew chief? Yeah, he was a crew chief on a T -39, which is like an executive jet. So he flew senior officers. It's a funny story. Anytime a chaplain was on board, it was Pope One was the call sign of the aircraft, especially if it was a chief of chaplains. Yeah. Was your dad a man of faith? He grew up in faith and had a profession of faith as a young person, but moved away from it.

in his teen years and young adult My wife my mom had no faith and grew up in a family that had nominal faith But she came to faith when I was in Bible College. Okay, that's a great story in and of itself Let's let's have let's hear it not not right now. I This is so good already and like the questions that we've got prepared or like they're irrelevant to you

the value of sharing these stories. But can we kind of skip over how you came into the Army chaplaincy? I want to hear about it. Obviously you grew up in a military home, but while we're kind of talking about trauma and moral injury and whatnot, can you share a little bit about your experience as a combat chaplain? If there's one or two experiences. Yeah, I wrote down to just for this, there's two that I think are seminal. One was May 19th.

a day after my oldest son's birthday, who he'll be 33 this May, or 32, my wife would tell me. It was May 19th, 2004, and I was in a combat logistics patrol, which we did at least twice a week. We had two FOBs, an area of responsibility about the brigade size, but we were a Div -CAV squadron, 1 ,250 troops.

Pete Stone (19:08.654)
And we were built out. We had all our tanks and Bradleys. We had artillery tubes. We have mortar platoons and we had 16 Kiowa helicopters. So this is a very robust combat organization that doesn't exist in the formation anymore. And it's screening guard for the division is what it was designed for, but we had our own AO right in the middle of the SUNY triangle. So we had OIF, OIF two. Okay.

And so we had these combat logistics patrols, about 300 kilometers, twice a week, generally on Monday and Wednesday. But we would try to keep the enemy guessing of when we actually did it. And this was a Wednesday. Actually, I think it was a Thursday. And we came around Route Grape outside of Samara.

And we got hit by an IED and then small arms and heavy fire, RPGs, all that kind of stuff. So we were locked in, in this conflict on the side of the road after an IED hit one of our HETs and we had some himmets with us. And I don't know, you know, my combat experience, I hated HETs because they were so slow and very dangerous in an environment like that, IED rich environment. We knew we were going to get hit.

We got hit a lot and we lost a lot of life on that route. But that day was particularly bad because we were just stuck and they couldn't bring in medevac birds. I had four casualties that I was working beside and it was one of those Hollywood moments. I remember time slowed down and I don't want to belabor the details, but I was by the Humvee, by the rear tire. The door was open. 240 Bravo was firing in the turret.

and all the brass was coming down. And I just distinctly remember the sound of the brass coming and flowing out of that seat, the door open and next to me and my knees burning and thinking I should have put my knee pads on. And it was hot as all get out, you know. But working with the casualties, I knew I was on sacred space. That I didn't have a worry in the world about my safety. I knew I was in holy ground.

Pete Stone (21:29.358)
that God had uniquely designed my life for that moment and to be hope for those casualties. And I remember, I'm not going to use his name because he's still serving, but I had this specialist who thought he was bleeding to death, but he had the body matter from his buddy on him. He was fine. He had some wounds, but they were cauterized by the shrapnel. And I was trying to keep him calm, and I got his wallet out and I showed him his family.

He was Catholic, so we were doing some Catholic prayers and I was trying to get him calmed down just so we could get him stable, not that he was going to pass away. I just needed him calm so I could work with the other casualties. So anyway, as that battle kind of played on, the commander and his whole convoy came up. And back in that day, the Humvees had like, you know, a bunch of antennas. You know, you remember those days, all these antennas?

And I distinctly remember him coming up on the TC side here and the door opened and he jumped out. Good old country boy from Tennessee. And when we all locked eyes, it was like Jesus in that the crowd, when somebody touched him of his dark garment, who touched me? I felt like he was telling me, thank God you're here to take care of the casualties and keep everybody focused. But,

I'll never trade that after coming back even I had a hard time ministering on a regular in a normal fashion because my ministry experiences in combat that first time were so stark and so overwhelming like that. And that's just one story. Fast forward. I'm a division chaplain. We're in Afghanistan and people are dying. They were going to do a

dignified transfer and then the four -star in theater wanted to pay his respects so the Mortuary Affairs Processing Center was there on the base and My CG at the time had a really hard time with death and it didn't process it very well so the aid called me up and I went upstairs and I sat down with the boss and I kind of Explained what was happening, and this is how we were going to do it

Pete Stone (23:54.446)
and that I'd make sure that he was comfortable and that I wouldn't put him in a position where he was uncomfortable. You can keep your composure and I'll explain everything to the four star. And I don't want to use names because these folks would know the story. So we got there and when we were standing there I realized that all these GOs from four star to three star to three star to two star to two star to two star to one star to one star to one star. So the entire chain of command were here.

especially the GOs, and they were all looking at me.

And I felt like another holy moment. It's like, okay. And so I went to the four star, I gathered around and it's like, this is what's going to happen. The transfer case with the flag is going to be here. I'll stand here. I'll step forward and offer two prayers. The first prayer will be for the soldiers and the soldier and the loss here in Afghanistan. I'll pause for a few moments of silence. Then the next prayer will be for the wife and the kids and those back home.

So when I step back after that prayer, sir, that's your indication. You can step forward for a few moments of silence and present your coin on the transfer case. And then we'll work our way down to the line. And then when I step back again, when I step back again, that concludes our time there. That's your cue to step across in front of me and then greet the personnel at the Motuary Affairs Processing Center.

so you can show your thanks and appreciation for them. But it sticks in my mind when you said combat experiences, those two rose to the top. Because the one on the side of the road outside of Samara changed me forever. I never felt like I was ever in harm. I was there because God chose for me to be there at that time to be what he needed me to be and represent things that transcend this earth.

Pete Stone (26:01.358)
The second time I recognized that no matter how ranking my commander is, like I'm General Flynn's chaplain now, they need me. And they need me in ways that they don't have anybody else to rely on. Both of those in combat kind of changed me forever as a leader and as a chaplain.

Why do you think, well, one thought as you were sharing that about being in that immediate combat, that tactical situation, I'm sure you were in danger. But you didn't feel the danger because you were so rooted in your calling that you felt God's peace. And you weren't thinking about yourself. No, and that's why our religious affairs and NCOs are so critical.

Because I had the best of 56th Mike in the old army, Sergeant Major now Edward Baptist, I felt like...

Pete Stone (27:07.598)
would make sure.

Pete Stone (27:14.99)
where I was supposed to stay.

Pete Stone (27:21.07)
needed to do to secure our situation.

Pete Stone (27:30.574)
Can you share a little bit more about what you did? We have so few chaplains that are in those situations that are right on the center of the X in those moments. We have a number, but not a whole lot, and fewer and fewer. Would you describe what you did, the best that you can remember, if you feel comfortable doing that? yeah, absolutely. So...

What you first have to do, a chaplain has to remain calm and he has to, or she has to be able to clarify what everybody needs to be doing. So if you, I watched the whole setup from the convoy commander to everybody else that was in and make sure that everybody had a job and that they were engaged in doing that job. And primarily was provide security.

and identify targets. The secondary is, is let's figure out what we've got. How many KIA, how bad is the situation? What do we need to do to get help? Those kinds of things. One of the things that helped out that day. And people had realized that at that time, as a captain chaplain on my second assignment, I am perhaps the most seasoned in seeing your officer on these convoys.

The convoy commander is an E -6. On occasion, we would have a company commander or troop commander rather. And that day we had the fire support officer for the squadron with us. So the fire support officer, and I had two radios in my vehicle, one that was the larger net, one was internal net, which is highly unusual for us to have that. But our mission was so critical. And those convoys were so dangerous.

that they insured I had two radios. So he was on my radio with X -ray, making sure that we had the coverage and help that we needed. Even if it was an F -16 or something that could fly over low or Apaches, whatever was available for CAS in the area to kind of dampen the situation so we could get control and get out of there. The goal was that day was just to kind of consolidate and then move out. But because we had the IED,

Pete Stone (29:53.646)
and Specialist Campbell was killed and the head rolled off the road into an open area. It was very hard to recover the vehicle. It was disabled. Obviously, his remains were trying to recover those. He was not in good shape. One thing that sticks out of my mind, we had run out of bounty bags. We had had so many incidences up to that point.

Some in our unit and some that we had rolled upon that was other units that we ran out of body bags. So I had to, I pulled out my whoopie, my, you know, we all love our whoopies. And I have a picture that the S1 took. He was in a helicopter circling and it's my 56 Mike, Ed Baptist wrapping Campbell's remains and that was...

So the things that I did, I rehearsed for, but what I thought I would do, I didn't do. It's not a time for preaching. It's a time for presence and the power of what you represent as a chaplain, as a noncombatant on the battlefield. One of the things that's in your mind and was in mine is not to be a distraction. So I'm not, I don't want to pull leadership.

away from what they're trying to do and how they're orienting the force to protect us. I want to be value added, a multiplier, not be a distraction. So I'm not trying to interrupt their processes, but if I see something, I take care of it. Those are the things that are in my mind. And also praying, obviously, it's like, how long are we going to be out? And how long is this going to last? And how bad can it get? Is this the worst? Is the worst over?

The power of all that is just overwhelming. I you know I Think about it a lot Do you? How did you come home from that? And then heal from it your so I talked about is that moral injury? I don't know whatever that is. It's traumatic in your for me The moral injury presented itself when I felt like I I should have done more and I wasn't there when that person died or I

Pete Stone (32:17.326)
didn't do this, I should have done that, I was in the wrong place. Those things you ruminate over. This occurred in May, I didn't come home until the following March. So there was a lot of time and a lot of trauma yet to do. It affects you, I mean you just lose, you lose your moorings emotionally. So the only two emotions I really had after that summer.

That was May, as you went into summer, I took R &R and we came back and there was more death and more trauma. I had a soldier die in my arms in September. Then there was a dry spell where we didn't have a lot of action. And then it ticked up again toward Thanksgiving and lasted all the way through the end of January into February. So, you know, the only emotions left were pure hilarity and rage.

So the balance of it all became very, very hard. And that's really where the book... I needed a book like this to read in 2004 to kind of help me understand what was happening. Why I was feeling the way I was feeling, why my emotions weren't working the way I thought they should. I just wanted to be normal again. What do you mean your emotions weren't working the way that you thought that they should? Well, I mean, there were some situations like after I came home...

in the home with five kids, little things, seemingly insignificant things with my kids would just set me off and I would just be very, very angry. But if something big happened, like a bike wreck or something big, I'm on it, you know, or we came up on a car accident on the highway, I'm like, in the zone, I'm ready for this. Those kinds of things. Where the normal activity...

came much harder. And the moral injury for me is the meaning and the dissidence that occurred over what I should have done. When I reflect over time and I talk to those that I served with, and we all have very close relationships today, all the soldiers, because we were stopped, lost, stopped, moved, there wasn't a private left in the organization unless you got busted. And...

Pete Stone (34:38.414)
So those connections, they still call me. And I still get word when there's a suicide or a loss or a death among those troops. And we're still close even across the years and across the miles. So I think for me, the emotional aspect of it coming back, you feel kind of numb. Nothing rises to the caliber of what you experienced in combat. And then I was an AIT battalion chaplain after that.

So I'm like, how to find significance? And that was hard for me. And telling war stories didn't help because these troops were probably likely going to units that were going to deploy, at least in their first enlistment, they were going to go somewhere at some point in time. So working through all those things, it takes time. And I didn't realize how bad I was until I got better, is the phrase I put on. And I got to a point where I needed to give my...

self -permission to hurt or to be broken. You know what I mean? I didn't know how bad it was until I got better. Right. How did you know when you were better? I don't know. That's probably a podcast all of its own. As a chaplain, you feel like you can be exposed to things because you're better prepared for it because...

you're a believer and you're spiritually prepared. Well, guess what? This spirit lives in a carnal flesh and it is susceptible to everything that anybody else is susceptible to. So PTSD, TBI, whatever you want to talk about. So those scars are with me and I did not realize how bad it was until I realized that I was getting better.

And it wasn't without help. My wife and I went to see behavioral health and combat back in 2010. I had a real hard time going back to Iraq for the second time. I was a major, I was a deputy division chaplain, which you know everything about. And I was running everything and I had a lot of responsibility on my shoulders and I wanted it right. So I was putting a lot of pressure, a lot of time and a senior leader.

Pete Stone (37:02.734)
who had known me from the previous deployment experience. He was my division chaplain when I deployed the first time. Now he was my core chaplain and the organization in Baghdad. So when he came and saw me, he's like, look, you need to get help. You're going to take yourself off the shelf. God's not going to be able to use you because you're going to make yourself unusable. So I went and got help. And that was the first step toward.

really understanding and acknowledging what was happening with me and understanding that I was going to have to do things differently in order to stay usable for God and be useful to the Army. Sir, I don't know what your personal opinions are about H2F FM 7 -22. From my perspective, I see it as a win for the Army where the different disciplines...

are talking to each other. Right. And in my experience, I've always seen it modeled very well to where that multidisciplinary approach, everyone is informing each other and they're working together. So it sounds like that was the case with your experience with BH was that they were. Yes. And I was already deployed. So I had, I was in a deployed environment that was still highly kinetic.

I was still in a trauma room. I was experiencing these things real time and I was able to get help to include biofeedback and all the help at behavioral health. I even went on medication and I was on medication for three or four years and that helped normalize everything so I could address the systemic issues. Do you mind if I ask what kind of medication is that too personal? I can't remember now. Just to kind of even you out a little bit and to moderate your...

Exactly. But I knew I wasn't going to be on in long term and I knew it wasn't the final solution. What I needed to do, to be quite honest, is I was on high idle all the time. I was running all the time. I couldn't relax. I couldn't read a book. I couldn't sit through a movie. So I needed to figure out what was happening in my body and in my brain that kept me in that mode. From 05 in the morning to 435 in the morning.

Pete Stone (39:30.318)
to 1130 at night. Eventually if I keep that pace up with Rippets to this day, man, I'm addicted. Do they still make them? Yeah, they do. You can buy them in the commissary. I'm going to look for a Rippet t -shirt. I'm not allowed down that aisle. They make these things called monsters now. I don't know if it looks so good. yeah, that's probably the same effect. I don't know how healthy any of that is, but Rippets were my fuel of choice because it was less.

less liquid for more caffeine. And coffee's always been a part of my life and very enjoy a good cup of coffee. So I have one right here, but it slowed me down to where I can kind of figure out who I am, what's happening inside me and how do I figure out the new me moving forward. And it's, you know, we say post -traumatic growth and that's what it is. It's like, I didn't lose a limb, but I lost something through this. And then I had two more deployments. So.

for overall in a 30 year career, including the reserves and 25 on active duty. So, you know, you have to come to grips with who you are now and try to recover who you were before, but that's not likely to exist again just because of so much has occurred. You said post -traumatic growth. I didn't lose a limb, but I did lose something else. What did you lose? my. One of the...

One of the piercing memories is after the first deployment, my daughter had taken a bath and she was dressed for bed. And one of the things that we would do is I would comb her hair in long, beautiful hair. And while she was sitting on my lap and I was combing her hair, brushing her hair in Schweinfurt, Germany after that first deployment before we came back to the mainland, she said, daddy, why don't you laugh and play with us like you did before?

And I think what changed for me over time, and especially now, I got to get back in touch with being, not everything, being so incredibly serious. You know, I felt like through all those combat experiences, I'm ready for anything. And I have to be ready. You know, I have to have the answer. I have to be able to apply myself to whatever the problem is. And I even still do that now in a four -star headquarters. But it's OK not to be ready sometimes.

Pete Stone (42:02.862)
It's okay not to know the answer. My entire career, I mean, and so many things have changed in the Army. I was the one -stop shop in the late 90s, early 2000s. Any issue in the battalion, there wasn't all, there was these agencies, but I was the link. I was the liaison. I was the one that triaged the soldier that was having issues and challenges and either directed them to behavioral health.

or whatever the situation, you know, suicide, all that stuff. I was it. I was in many ways, I became the storehouse. That's what changed. I'm not the storehouse. I just happen to know the storehouse. And as a Christian, that storehouse is Jesus Christ. And I had to kind of reframe that it doesn't all depend on me. It's interesting. You said things aren't as serious as...

they appear to be. And here you are, the chaplain for the most consequential AOR on the planet. Kind of shifting a little bit. What's it like being General Flynn's chaplain? What have you observed over the last two years? Is that right? Yeah, I was three years almost. Okay. So Charlie Flynn is a great American and he's the national treasure. Anybody that wants to get to know Charlie Flynn, just Google him and watch some YouTube videos.

He is the charismatic inspirational leader that we all need. And to be his chaplain and his pastor is a great gift to me, especially after Fort Hood and Cabasas and all those things that we experienced as an army and as an installation and as a command. And as chaplains, then coming here and meeting General Flynn and Kathleen, his spouse, was an incredible blessing for my wife and I, Chris and I.

It was what we needed and his ability to understand what he wants from his command chaplain has been a gift. So I spend weeks and sometimes months preparing for my next interaction with General Flynn. And when we have 35 to 45 minutes for him to just talk with me, he's able to share and...

Pete Stone (44:24.686)
to use me as a sounding board like he can with no one else. And some of these things that he's working through and dealing with, he cannot even speak with his spouse. So that confidentiality, that pastor relationship, and the trust that he places in me, I mean, 42 % of the chaplain corps is in the Pacific. And that is a stewardship responsibility that I've never experienced before.

The Army and the Chaplain Corps and the Chief of Chaplains looks to me to shepherd this flock and to help us understand what is required of us if there's a conflict in this region. And I thought it was a good idea to stay for a third year, but as I'm in my third year, I'm tired. But I wanted to stay with General Flynn as long as I could. That's what it's like. And it's also a lot of it's out of my hands. I'm not in charge of a lot.

I have a lot of responsibility, but this is how I say it. I'm a colonel. I don't have problems. I have colonels and lieutenant colonels that have problems. And I'm here to assist them as they address the issues all the way down to the division, really. Those issues and challenges through the core, first core in JBLM, the USIRJ in Japan, Korea, and Alaska, all those in here on Oahu.

and in the Army and the Hawaiian Islands. I'm here to facilitate, integrate, coordinate. I am the master chief integrator for religious support issues and challenges. And if those issues get to me, then I get to step in the batter's box and knock a home run if I can. That's what my experience and depth of understanding of the command and what General Flynn wants and how user pack works.

And all those things come to bear on those issues and challenges that you need either at the division level, core level for sure, and then our major subordinate commands in the theater. That's what I do. I'd like to ask you a question about how you have prepared and what you do to prepare for that internal advisement component of your role as General Flynn's chaplain. But before I do, I'd like to kind of...

Pete Stone (46:48.302)
provide some context why this is an important question for me. As you know better than I, the Chaplain Corps is full of a lot of chaplains, wonderful pastors. And I think the temptation for most chaplains is to focus only on the pastoral part, which if we're going to err, maybe that's the side we should err on, but I've certainly been guilty of those chaplains.

who just say, you know what, the staff, the operations process, it's like Greek to me. Maybe it's not like Greek, I studied Greek, I know a little Greek. It's like, what else? I don't know, calculus to me. I don't get it. It's a foreign language for sure. It's a foreign language, yeah. And I've just avoided it, like the plague. But what a friend of mine, I call him a peer mentor, you might know who I'm talking about, other chap who served where you served, said Pete.

Too much happens by accident. Think about all the extra, all the more ministry and the kingdom impact you could have if you're deliberate and you're integrated. And he shows me a picture of, at JRTC, of a battalion air assault that's about to happen. And he's like, he looks at the air assault picture, says, Pete, show me where the chaplain was. And I'm like, I don't see a chaplain. He's like, that's right. You know where the chaplain was? He was at the headquarters doing a service for four people.

and here's a battalion of people about to airlift, do an air assault. It's like because the cha... Watch your priority. Yeah, and the chaplain just didn't know, he didn't realize. Right. And that's his teaching point. He pounds the podium and says, part of being a good pastor is being involved in the operations process and knowing these things and being deliberate and learning. And if you're not comfortable, get uncomfortable. So that has been a steep learning curve for me in my current role in the last two years.

and it's been a hundred percent improvement because when you start from zero and you you prove one percent that's a hundred percent right something like that you get one percent i don't know what the math is i've seen great progress thank you that's affirming but my point is if i could geek out a little bit for any chaplains that might listen how do you deliberately prepare for an engagement with a four -star general?

Pete Stone (49:11.438)
And that translates obviously to our battalion chaplains that want to provide value to their battalion commander or their battalion CSM. How do you deliberately prepare so that you're always ready to have some internal advisement that adds value to that commander or CSM's incredibly busy time? Well, I mean, to me it's an easy answer. I grew up in an army that kind of expected me to know my organization.

So the first thing I do is I got a no user pack. I have to know what's going on, what their priorities are, what's the efforts, what's the theater estimate look like, how war plans made, all that operational minutiae that is not necessarily something that I want to spend a whole lot of time delving into, but I have to understand the organization and what its priorities are right now. What is it working on? And what are we concerned about? What are the gaps?

What are they asking the Army for, DoD for, and DOPECOM for? And I spend a lot of time watching and paying attention to what General Flynn is doing. Where is he? What's he talking about? What he's frustrated about? And I get to know his team. So he has a pretty large team that takes care of him and his calendar. And it's really, really hard to get in to see him. But they make it a priority to get me in. So the beauty of that is...

I have those people who trust me and know my value. So what he doesn't know, unless he listens to this podcast, is that I get there early and I go to each one of his team members and they show me on computer screens what he's been up to, who he's had engagements with, what went well, what didn't go well, what's going on in his family life, what are the issues and concerns that are pressing on him, what are some anniversaries that are coming up, the good, the bad.

What are some things that are happening in the larger sphere of his influence that he's concerned about? So when I come in and I sit down and I cross my legs and I said, sir, I'm here for you. What are you thinking about today? He thinks I'm clairvoyant because I know exactly where he's at and what he's focused on. And he knows something hard is going to come out in the media soon. And I know about it. So I'm able to talk to him at a level that.

Pete Stone (51:36.462)
He appreciates that he needs, and he's a man of faith. So he wants to steer everything that he does toward his God and have God's blessing on it. He doesn't want to be out of step with his God. So praying with him is huge and it's meaningful and it's 100 % confidential. And I think that's the beauty that we provide as chaplains, that confidentiality.

I think a lot of commanders from battalion above need to stop and think about the value that their chaplain brings because we honor confidentiality and we're mandated. So I think the beauty of that, but getting to know what's going on in your command and getting to know your boss, understanding what he's interested in or she, and then feeding that interest in those engagements, even though I may see him four or five times a year.

You know, I go out of my way to kind of stick my head in when I know he's in the office. I do things and give him regular updates on email is helpful too. Sir, I know this is a big trip. I know this is the last time you go into Japan and Korea. I want to make sure you know I'm praying for you. You know, those kind of touches. Be spiritual. You're a chaplain. They expect you to kind of be spiritual and to pray on occasion. So I try to provide that.

not for just him, but all the GOs. My sphere of ministry is all the 06 directors and above in my organization. And there's 21 directors in USERPAC that are 06. So I try to provide that pastoral care and support for those folks as well. And then I let the staff take care of the rest of the formation, if you will. A phrase pops into my mind as you're describing that, especially...

the study that goes into preparing for that is just be curious. Be a student of the people that you're serving. Well, and one of the gifts, if you're a good chaplain, you know how to read people, you know how to read the room, and you know how to read the situation. So the beauty of having that insight, emotional intelligence, if you will, is to be able to see something in a commander's update.

Pete Stone (53:56.046)
that kind of struck you funny and then when you have a chance to talk to the boss it's like sir I saw this exchange is there something there that I can pray with you about? I was like yes. And what I wasn't prepared for that happens all the time is when I travel throughout the theater and just got back from Japan this weekend is when I meet with leaders throughout the region they know clearly who I represent and it's not just God.

It's General Flynn. So they give me things to take back to General Flynn. And, you know, they kind of poke me in the chest. General Flynn needs to hear this. Even though I know the commander -to -commander dialogue is very good and very healthy throughout USERPAC, I think it's holy ground to have leaders throughout the region like Chaplain. I think our army needs to hear this or USERPAC needs to hear this. And then I can find creative ways to get that message to who needs to hear it.

so that we can get after those kinds of issues without, you know, frustrating any of the relationships. Sir, thank you for sharing what your experiences have been like working with General Flynn. Kind of continuing in that same vein of kind of a strategic perspective. It feels like our nation is not very cohesive. It feels like we're splintered.

And it doesn't feel like the tension, it doesn't seem like there's any forecast of great improvement. And just as my amateur look at the news cycles, whatever way this next election turns, I think it's going to be problematic for unity. So considering that, how do you see the Army Chaplain Corps being uniquely positioned?

to speak into that and to be a resource for the nation, not just the army. Yeah, I mean, the chaplaincy is commissioned to serve soldiers, family members, and DA civilians. So we don't really have a role in larger society, but we can be an example of faith walk in practice and why it matters. In the society of the army, it makes a huge difference. You know, all of our chaplains.

Pete Stone (56:17.742)
are able to minister widely and to care for folks regardless of their religious backgrounds or having faith or no faith at all or sexual preference or any of the choices that they've made in their life, we can still minister to those folks. And I think we can do it with integrity of being true to who we are. And I think our society at large, I'm not an expert on modern society, but I think faith walk and practice is the magic.

Just in Japan last Thursday, we had an interfaith dialogue with faith leaders in Tokyo, 28 million people. We had a whole selection of 20 plus religious leaders from Tokyo, some English speaking, some just Japanese that came to Camp Zama and we had an interfaith dialogue. We gave them a tour of our facilities there and we had a conversation about the chaplaincy.

and what makes us unique. And all of them were just overwhelmingly refreshed with a conversation. And one of the religious leaders made the point that things like this will make a difference in a society that is so divided, that we choose to understand and accept what we know about the other faith group and find common ground without violating who we are and what we believe as our core beliefs and our core values.

And I think the chaplaincy does a good job with that. God knows where we're at. It's a great time to be a chaplain. And I think the magic is faith, walk, and practice in the Army and outside the Army. A lot of what we see in society, I think, is they're searching too, and they're looking for the right answers, perhaps not looking in the right places. And I think society at large, as a pastor, I think the answer is faith, and it's walk, and it's practice.

How do you differentiate the three? The faith is what I believe. A walk is how that belief changes me. It makes me a better human being. I'm transformed. I'm a new creature as a believer in Christ. And then practice is how others see me. Do they see Christ in me? Do I walk in such a way that they see that I'm distinctly different?

Pete Stone (58:43.95)
Not that that's evangelism, but I think in a world that is troubled and broken and who is experiencing trauma like we talked about, whether it's combat trauma or other kinds of trauma, our world is filled with it. To be able to step into those sacred spaces and offer something that's uniquely different, that is maybe one option among many, but to me is the only option.

my relationship with Christ has made all the difference. From breaking a broken military home and consecrating giving myself to faith and a walk and as a preacher of the gospel and then called into the chaplaincy, that's what's made all the difference for me and my ministry. So I think any conversation I have with anybody that's dealing with...

the ramifications of brokenness in our society, I would like to sit down with them and talk to them about, hey, there's another option here that you may have not considered. And then share my faith or share what faith is. I think the Army with the new FM 7 -22 in that chapter on spirituality goes a long way to allow me as a religious leader in the military to be able to talk about.

faith in the role it plays in helping us make decisions and choose a life partner to raise our kids, to have a career that's fulfilling, to have something that transcends the atmospheric bonds of this globe. Sometimes you just need something that this world has nothing to do with, something that's stabilizing. And I think faith walk in practice is that for me.

Thank you. Hey, I hope, I really hope we do this more, many more times. There's so much more I would love to hear about your understanding and how you interact with moral injury in the books that you're writing, co -authoring. I'd like to hear the story about your wife's father, his journey to faith, is that right? Is that who you're referencing the story, some incredible story?

Pete Stone (01:01:01.134)
Let me see who was it that you said an amazing story in my mom's story. you're okay your mom's story Okay, yeah, we'd love to hear that would love to hear about why you became an army chaplain But for now if we could just close with what is one piece of advice you would give to a junior chaplain She or he and just now coming up in the army chaplain corps in the midst of all that's going on. What's?

your best advice you'd share with that chaplain? Well, I'm going to shape it because I'm going to offer it to you and it should transcend any chaplain in uniform, regardless of branch. Wherever you stand, wherever your boots are is holy ground and God has set aside that space for you to be a voice. And sometimes that voice is really easy and sometimes it's really, really hard like forehood for me. And sometimes you're not sure about that space.

but that is your space. And then God has provided that space for you to be who you are on behalf of his kingdom for such a time as this, regardless of whatever the circumstances. That's my advice, whether it's JRTC or NTC or JPMRC or it's jungle school or even like the assessment program at Fort Knox I went through last year.

I went to be assessed and I found myself ministering to others because I recognized where my boots stood, that was holy ground, and God expected me and kind of wanted me to be something different through that experience and to provide ministry. That's what we're here for. Get over yourself. This is not about you. It's about them. It's about who you serve in that battalion. The better you provide that, the more value you bring and the more valuable you become.

the greater you can fulfill God's purposes for you.

Pete Stone (01:03:00.75)
Amen. Just drop the mic right there. That's a great way to conclude this conversation. Thank you so much for your time. Well, Pete, it's your friendship and fellowship and seeing you work and grow and develop has been a pure joy. And, you know, I know the Army is good hands. The future of the Army and the chaplaincy is in good hands because of leaders like you. I'll be celebrating your promotion in the coming months. You know, whenever a list, I don't even know when you're going before the board.

But I'm excited to see chaplains like you grow and develop and have a vision of how you can take care of the force so that everybody has the same kind of drive and passion you do. Thank you. Thank you, sir. God bless you. I appreciate it.